Chisel strategies

[ear3]

I just realized that I have to raise the angle on my Narex bench chisels if I want to do anything other than paring.  Rolled the edge on several chisels, which are all currently sharpened at 25 degrees primary bevel (with a Veritas MKII induced microbevel), while I was squaring the corner in a 1/2" deep rabbet in white oak.

I'm just trying to figure out now whether I should raise the angle on all the chisels to 30 degrees or more, or whether it might make sense to get a second set of chisels so that I have one for chopping mortises and other tasks that involve working against end grain, and another reserved for paring and shaving work that I would keep at 25 degrees.

Just curious -- for those of you who keep your chisels at a more obtuse angle (30 degrees+), do you shape the whole primary bevel at that angle, or just a smaller secondary bevel?  If the latter, how much of the blade do you have to sharpen at the higher angle for it to be effective (1/16"? 1/8"?  more?)

If I get another set of chisels, I will probably go for something better than the Narex.  Do you think it's better to have the higher end chisels for paring work or for chopping mortises and other heavy duty action? 

 

[tony_sheehan]

When faced with the same situation, I opted for a set of Japanese chisels. I find you can pretty much hammer the cr*p out of them if necessary and they retain their edge for a very long time

 

[derekcohen]

I have a couple of different sets of chisels: Koyamaichi for dovetailing in very hard woods, Veritas PM-V11 and O1 (I was one of the testers for Lee Valley, hence ended up with both), vintage Stanley 750 (which is high carbon steel), and Blue Spruce in A2, which were the chisels that got me thinking about the bevel angle of bench chisels.

The point of bench chisels is that they are all rounders and more often used with a mallet (or gennou). They have to cope with impact, which places much stress on an edge. The short answer is that I bevel all my bench chisels at 30 degrees. You would not wish to use A2 steel below this with chisels, and Japanese white steel, which gets sharper than anything else, also needs to be 30 degrees .... so where is the advantage in going lower? Just keep your bench chisels sharp.

For paring I use Japanase slicks (Kiyohesa), which are at 25 degrees. But that is another story.

You may be interested in this article I wrote comparing the different steels in bench chisels:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

The chisels used were the Veritas PM-V11, vintage (not the new versions) Stanley #750 (which is a HCS similar to O1, but I am unsure of the specific type), Koyamaichi white steel, and Blue Spruce A2.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[grbmds]

Right now, all my chisels are sharpened with a primary bevel of 30 degrees; then a secondary bevel of about 2 or so degrees more. I took a class from a well-known woodworker/hand tool expert on sharpening and he informed the class that he sharpens all his tools at about that angel; give or take a degree or two; anywhere close to 30. After that, I just decided that there was no advantage to a lesser angle. For low angle planes, I do sharpen at whatever the original angle was (25 degrees), but my chisels all now get the same angle. I haven't really noticed that paring is a problem at that angle. The most important thing is that they are sharp.

 

[ear3]

Thanks [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] and [member=19734]grbmds[/member] .  Looks like it's time to break out the xtra coarse stone and reset the bevel.

 

[grbmds]

[member=37411]Edward A Reno III[/member]  Here is a link to a Popular Woodworking article or blog from Christopher Schwarz which provides his sharpening philosophy for chisel and plane iron angles:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/about-my-love-of-35

I feel there are reasons to sharpen low angle plane blades at 25 degrees, since that is what they were sharpened at whey purchased. However, I don't see any real need to sharpen chisels and other plane blades at anything buy one single angle, with a secondary bevel 2 degrees. If Christopher Schwarz does it, I guess it's good enough for me. Anyway, the most important thing seems to be that the tools are as sharp as you can get them.

 

[ear3]

Thanks [member=19734]grbmds[/member]

 

[HarveyWildes]

I just sharpened a set of PMV-11 chisels a couple of months ago.  At first I started with the 25 degree bevel and made the microbevel 27 degrees.  Then I read a writeup from [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] and changed the microbevel to 30 degrees.  When I'm ready to regrind, I'll regrind to something just less than 30 degrees and continue with the 30 degree microbevel - seems to work well.

 

[Mismarked]

[member=4358]derekcohen[/member]
Are you currently hollow grinding your chisels at 30 degrees on the wheel, and then doing the sideways freehand sharpening on the stones for a microbevel at the same 30 degrees?  I think I read that in one of your articles, but I know you have updated your techniques over time.
  The reason I ask is that I bought a Tormek a few weeks ago but have not had time to try it out and have no experience with hollow grinding.
  I have a set of the lower priced Fujikawas that I initially ground at a straight 25 degree bevel with no microbevel, and one in particular kept chipping.  I thought it was maybe my lack of skill, but I am going to try using the Tormek and change to the 30 degrees and see if it helps.  I also recently purchased a few of the Veritas chisels and want to try and get it figured out before doing anything to them.  I do have a few Home Depot buck brothers and will probably practice on those first.

 

[ear3]

Buck Brothers!  I still have a couple of those for when I do site work and have to do something stupid and ill advised.  And a Buck Brothers plane blade was also how I first started practicing my sharpening skills...Those blades are thin enough to be cabinet shims.

[member=4358]derekcohen[/member]
Are you currently hollow grinding your chisels at 30 degrees on the wheel, and then doing the sideways freehand sharpening on the stones for a microbevel at the same 30 degrees?  I think I read that in one of your articles, but I know you have updated your techniques over time.
  The reason I ask is that I bought a Tormek a few weeks ago but have not had time to try it out and have no experience with hollow grinding.
  I have a set of the lower priced Fujikawas that I initially ground at a straight 25 degree bevel with no microbevel, and one in particular kept chipping.  I thought it was maybe my lack of skill, but I am going to try using the Tormek and change to the 30 degrees and see if it helps.  I also recently purchased a few of the Veritas chisels and want to try and get it figured out before doing anything to them.  I do have a few Home Depot buck brothers and will probably practice on those first.

 

[derekcohen]

Buck Brothers!  I still have a couple of those for when I do site work and have to do something stupid and ill advised.  And a Buck Brothers plane blade was also how I first started practicing my sharpening skills...Those blades are thin enough to be cabinet shims.

[member=4358]derekcohen[/member]
Are you currently hollow grinding your chisels at 30 degrees on the wheel, and then doing the sideways freehand sharpening on the stones for a microbevel at the same 30 degrees?  I think I read that in one of your articles, but I know you have updated your techniques over time.
  The reason I ask is that I bought a Tormek a few weeks ago but have not had time to try it out and have no experience with hollow grinding.
  I have a set of the lower priced Fujikawas that I initially ground at a straight 25 degree bevel with no microbevel, and one in particular kept chipping.  I thought it was maybe my lack of skill, but I am going to try using the Tormek and change to the 30 degrees and see if it helps.  I also recently purchased a few of the Veritas chisels and want to try and get it figured out before doing anything to them.  I do have a few Home Depot buck brothers and will probably practice on those first.

I hollow grind all chisels at 30 degrees, and then freehand sharpen on the hollow.

Sharpening any bench chisel at 25 degrees - especially Japanese bench chisels - is asking for a chipped edge when the chisel is used with a mallet. Japanese bench chisels are designed to be hit with a gennou. The impact placed more stress on the blade edge than paring with hand pressure.

Although some frown on the practice of hollow grinding a Japanese chisel, I do this all the time with the Tormek. The wet grind prevents damage to the hard steel, and I have not had any chipping result (as long as the edge is 30 degrees - more if hammering into very hard wood).

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[DrDrey]

In my experience, NAREX has been making excellent chisels.

I have 2 Narex Richter chisels (1" and 3/8"). The Richter series as the ones that receive cryogenic treatment.
According to Narex:  "Following initial hardening, cryogenic treatment is performed which cools the steel down  to −190° C (-310° F) using liquid nitrogen. This alters the mechanical properties of the steel at the molecular level greatly increasing its strength, toughness and wear resistance."

The Narex Richter Chisels arrived sharp (I did not feel they needed any sharpening or honing). I do not subject them to hard core use, but so far I am impressed with how they keep the edge. Each chisel came with its own black plastic cover that fits the edge very well and protects it in storage.

I also have 1 Narex Paring chisel (1/2" wide). I bought it because I needed a long chisel to reach into difficult-to-reach corners of a project I was working in. The blade length of this chisel is 245mm (9-1/2) In my subjective judgment, when arrived, this chisel was slightly sharper than the Narex Richter chisels. This chisel, too, was sold with a plastic edge cover. So far it has demonstrated an excellent ability to keep the edge sharp.

From using them I concluded that if I need other sizes, Narex Richter is at the very top of my list.

 

[bobd]

The most important thing is that they are sharp.

I've spent so much time unsuccessfully messing around with chisel sharpeners, definitely going to take this advice!