Classified Ads: An Endangered Species

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
A while back, we debated the benefits of having classified ads here on the forum.  We decided that, with a set of rules, classifieds would be a good idea.

We have now been running classifieds for a while, enough time to see how things work.

Bottom line: it's been a royal pain in the neck.  I receive a constant stream of complaints from members who do not like classifieds.  I've tried to simplify the rules to please everyone.  Still, members post without looking at the rules, prompting complaints from others, which I have to answer.

It would be great if I could just announce that classifieds are independent of the forum.  This was my hope at first, but in reality it doesn't work that way.  If the classifieds appear here, they are my responsibility.

I'm looking into a different system for running classifieds in our forum.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[Dan Clark]

Matthew,

Is it possible to create a special "Rules" post where anyone who wants to post an want ad would have to read the rules and agree to them before posting each ad?  I've seen this done with finanicial institutions.  In some cases, you check off each rule section and then type your user name in a box (sort of a signature) indicating you've read the rules.

This would have to be a special type of section where each thread post would require agreement to the rules.  It might cut down some of the hassles.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[woodrat]

How about designing a form that requires all of the information required by the rules?

I like the ads because it gives me a chance to pickup a bargain when someone is decides to abandon the Festool way of life. 

Jeff

 

[Eli]

Who's the pinhead that keeps complaining? I mean really what is there to complain about? Either you want to buy what is posted, or you don't. How about you make it even simpler than that, and make anyone who wants to VIEW the classifieds agree not to hassle you before they'll be allowed to view them. You've already made it clear that you don't want to be resposible for them, and they are provided as a service. Slap a Caveat Emptor at the top of it and be done with the whole issue. It's valuable for some. Even though I probably wouldn't buy anything, I like to read them. My $.02 (adjusted)

End of rant. Apologies, it's 3:46 AM, just woke up.

No wait, I got more. Matthew, why don't you also make every ad automatically have a sticky post from you saying not to bother you anymore. Jeff's form is a good idea too, but all of these things require more work than you've already put in. Guess you have to weigh your present hassle options against future hassle options.

 

[Jim McFarland]

Matthew, I have no idea who is complaining (and I don't want to know) but I suspect these individuals view the classifieds section as "garage sale signs in their gated community."  Nothing short of removing the classifieds will please such a person.  

In a forum with unrestricted membership, I believe it is impossible to design enough rules or strict rules enforcement to keep out an occasional dead beat.  Forum classifieds are buy and sell at your own risk and I don't believe rules or technology will soon change this.

SMC has a very simple "personal tools only and no commercial sales" policy which seems to me about all you need.  Commercial sellers are identified very quickly and drummed out by the members.

I posted a classified early in my membership because I considered this a small, very friendly group who shared my passion for quality woodworking tools.  For this reason, I offered exclusively here first although I really didn't expect to sell the (non-Festool) item through this venue.  After a few days here, I posted on SMC and sold within a few hours.

Personally, I would like to see you keep the classifieds.  All that said, this is in effect, your forum, and you should just remove the classifieds if, for whatever reason, you can't ignore the whiners.

 

[Eli]

No, right you are. I didn't really want a name ;D

 

[Jim McFarland]

  I know I said no more rules but maybe one more would help:
Any individual who complains privately to Matthew about a classified rule violation will be permanently banned from the FOG -- no exceptions.

If you have a problem with a classified you should post it as a reply to that classified.

 

[Dan Uhlir]

  Shut it down if you have  too Matthew, you go way beyond with all you do for the group and if the classifieds are becoming too much of a hassle just shut it down there's plenty of  alternatives for interet buy and sell and i for one would perfectly understand if you simply said forget it. thanks dan

 

[Matthew Schenker]

I really would like to keep the classifieds around, but just have it so people follow a few simple rules.  Mainly, it seems that the people who are complaining would be OK with classifieds if we followed these guidelines.  That's why I keep insisting on the rules.  I figure it's a way of keeping the classifieds around and also keeping the doubters happy with it.

There are four ways to go here:
1. Anyone who wants to register a complaint should do so directly to the seller (I've already pointed this out in certain listings).
2. Any classified listing against the rules gets deleted without notice (I've never actually done this, preferring instead to find a compromise).
3. Officially separate myself from the classifieds and make it clear that it's "each man, woman, and child for themselves" frontier!
4. Get rid of classifieds altogether.

My preference would be to go with a combination of number 1 and number 3.

Matthew

 

[Jim McFarland]

Matthew, I apologize for my earlier naive remarks on how to solve the "classifieds" issue.  You're obviously a bright guy and know these things already.  If you were getting questions/complaints from a nobody like me you would just ignore or tell them to post for public discussion (DAMHIKT  ) 

//speculation on//

From the outside, this issue appears to be a "board of directors" level disagreement.  One highly respected camp supports classifieds and one highly respected camp is against.  The rather lengthy set of rules is probably your attempt to satisfy both and you keep getting squeezed.

I would bet 99% of the members care less whether you keep the classifieds or not.  Make it easy on yourself and pick a path.  If someone leaves because of your classifieds decision, then forum is probably better off in the long run, anyway.

//speculation off//

The one clear thing in all the posts is how much all appreciate your generosity in maintaining this forum. 

 

[Eli]

Like I said, I don't really use them. Would I notice if the obituaries weren't in the paper? Maybe, but they're good to read sometimes. I DO think it's extremely unfair that you already spend your time doing all this other stuff for free, and then people expect you to resolve disputes on what is essentially another free service.

Is it possible to screen access to the classifieds for both buyers and sellers only to those who've electronically signed an agreement that they won't hassle you for any reason upon being granted entry?

 

[jonny round boy]

Like Eli, I don't really use them either, but I'm nosey & read them anyway (living outside the US I couldn't buy if I wanted to). It wouldn't bother me if they went, but I do think it's a good resource to have if you can get round the issues.

Alternatively, how about doing away with the classifieds, but relaxing the rules on linking to eBay auctions? This presents problems of it's own obviously, but could you limit the ability to post in that section to people who had made, say, a minimum of 50 posts? That'd stop people registering just to post auction links, yet allow regular contributors to post. Just another idea.

 

[semenza]

Hi,

      I like the classifieds. But I could live with out them, no great loss. Would taking a poll help you decide wether or not to keep them?
      I think the idea of having a form that requires the info (name, phone, etc) to be filled in before a post can be made would help. I too have noticed several adds posted with little or no info right after you put the newest rules up. ??? 
      I don't care either way if the adds can link to Ebay. As long as commercial sellers are kept from flooding the board.
      One other thought- if you remove the classified section, I am willing to bet that the adds will start showing up on the other forum categories. Which would be even worse than having to deal with the Classifieds as a seperate section. It won't matter if the forum rules don't allow posting adds in the other sections because the rules breakers don't care anyway.

Seth

 

[ejfud]

I can't believe the amount of problems with classifieds on this board when it averages about two a month.

I suggest those that don't like them, stop looking and quit wasting Matthew's time. He does a great job with this board and gives freely of his time. There are lots of things in life I don't like, but I take care of them myself and if I can't, I move on.

Just my opinion.

Gary

 

[Matthew Schenker]

I can't believe the amount of problems with classifieds on this board when it averages about two a month.

Gary, I don't know if you meant it this way, but your statement really made me laugh!  Of course, you're correct -- why all the trouble for the most minor aspect of this forum?

OK, I think the best plan here is to formally make the classifieds a semi-autonomous region!  If you venture there -- as seller or buyer -- you are on your own.

Let's try that for a while and see how it works.

Matthew

 

[iggy07]

Matthew -

First, thanks for making this site available to all of us. I have learned a great deal in a short period of time.

Re the classifieds: All this hand-wringing and posting takes everyone's time, and in particular, yours. With one simple change it could be simplified. DON'T waste your time 'warning' people to re-post their messages correctly, OR ELSE it will be removed. Simply REMOVE the message, and perhaps replace it with a boilerplate message that says:

"The classified ad posted on dd/mm/yyyy by username has been deleted because it did not follow the simple rules provided for this section of the forum."

End of story!

As it is, you now have the obligation to return to this improper message repeatedly to see if it has indeed been updated. Who needs that?

And yes, everyone else needs to chill out and deal with more important issues in their lives.

iggy

 

[ejfud]

I can't believe the amount of problems with classifieds on this board when it averages about two a month.

Gary, I don't know if you meant it this way, but your statement really made me laugh!  Of course, you're correct -- why all the trouble for the most minor aspect of this forum?

OK, I think the best plan here is to formally make the classifieds a semi-autonomous region!  If you venture there -- as seller or buyer -- you are on your own.

Let's try that for a while and see how it works.

Matthew

That is what I meant, you'd think we were having massive problems with fraud from the amount of discussion.

Gary

 

[Toller]

2. Any classified listing against the rules gets deleted without notice (I've never actually done this, preferring instead to find a compromise).
3. Officially separate myself from the classifieds and make it clear that it's "each man, woman, and child for themselves" frontier!

I would suggest a combination of 2&3, but where the only "rule" is that it be a classified ad.  Delete any posting that is not something for sale, and leave the rest.

I would hate to see you drop the concept because people are complaining.  If they don't like it, they can ignore it; can't they?

 

[brandon.nickel]

I'm not terribly interested in the classifieds section in general, but since I do read every post on the board, I find myself in there now and again.  There have been several times that I have rad a listing and not understood what was missing (not that I went to great lengths to investigate).  In fact, one of the posters seemed to share my confusion.  If you're going to post a "you're in violation of the rules" message, I'd find it enlightening to know what was left out (not a treatise, but at least a reference #).

My $0.02.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

I am experimenting with the idea of separating myself from the classified section, as much as possible.

...If you're going to post a "you're in violation of the rules" message, I'd find it enlightening to know what was left out (not a treatise, but at least a reference #).

My $0.02.

I've gone to great lengths to specify what is expected in the classifieds, honing the rules to be as clear and concise as possible:

• I've posted the rules as a sticky at the top of the classified section
• I've given the rules a title in large, bold, red letters
• I've offered a direct link to the rules when an ad is in violation
• I've called members' attention to the rules in the home page of the classified section.

If that's not enough, please feel free to make a suggestion.

Here's a link to the rules:http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=276.0

Matthew