Combination Square advice needed
- Thread starter sanangelo
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JayStPeter
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I think the 12" Starrett for less than $80 at Lee Valley is the deal.
There are some slightly less expensive options that are pretty good, but might as well get the Starrett for what amounts to a couple fast food lunches more.
There are some slightly less expensive options that are pretty good, but might as well get the Starrett for what amounts to a couple fast food lunches more.
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Mitutoyo and Fowler are also commonly considered quality instruments.
Tom
Tom
GhostFist
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Starret Mitutoyo are very nice combo squares. I can't justify bringing them to site on my work though as combo squares olfa knives and the like seem to grow legs. I think one year I ended up spending $200 on olfa knives alone. I use an Empire combo square. It's no cadilac but good enough for a lot of applications I'm using them for and relatively cheap....around $15 bucks. If I was in the shop it would be Starret all the way.
I was educated in machining on Starrett tools and have kept both Starrett and Brown and Sharpe (formerly the best tools on the planet) combo squares for many years.
But- this is the smokin deal right now, PEC- made in USA, as good as Starrett in my opinion, and on sale as cosmetic defects at very low prices:
http://store.harryepstein.com/c/ProductsEngineering.html
Plus the retailer is dedicated to cool/interesting tools and the website is a hoot...
I just bought a little 6" one, and the logo was partially etched off by the factory as a disclaimer. The actual cosmetic defect is quite negligible. I intend to buy a few more from their selection...
But- this is the smokin deal right now, PEC- made in USA, as good as Starrett in my opinion, and on sale as cosmetic defects at very low prices:
http://store.harryepstein.com/c/ProductsEngineering.html
Plus the retailer is dedicated to cool/interesting tools and the website is a hoot...
I just bought a little 6" one, and the logo was partially etched off by the factory as a disclaimer. The actual cosmetic defect is quite negligible. I intend to buy a few more from their selection...
JoggleStick
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Everyone develops their own workflows....
When I'm in the shop and all my tools are 'safe' I use and really enjoy using the Mititoyo combo and double sided square and I have several different length rules and it is very Nice and sublimely accurate. I also have some Colen Clenton squares that i occasionaly bring out for 'special' projects.
It is a rare day I take any of them them to site- but I don't hesitate if I need them. Thing is- I rarely do.
Out on site I actually use a Stanley plastic Quick square and a metal roof framing square for longer legs, etc. I prefer not to measure anything on site- working with a story stick approach gives me fewer 'marking' errors... And It takes seconds to check and if necessary re- calibrate the roof square; with a centre punch.
There's heaps of character- dings and dags on the plastic squares- but there's also 3-4 of them in the van ranging from new- unused to 'seen better days'. The one on my tool belt is in my hand all day. I like the metal quick squares too- but I'd rather hit the plastic ones with a chisel.... I treat them as a consumable...
Cheap, cheery and accurate... Works for me.
When I'm in the shop and all my tools are 'safe' I use and really enjoy using the Mititoyo combo and double sided square and I have several different length rules and it is very Nice and sublimely accurate. I also have some Colen Clenton squares that i occasionaly bring out for 'special' projects.
It is a rare day I take any of them them to site- but I don't hesitate if I need them. Thing is- I rarely do.
Out on site I actually use a Stanley plastic Quick square and a metal roof framing square for longer legs, etc. I prefer not to measure anything on site- working with a story stick approach gives me fewer 'marking' errors... And It takes seconds to check and if necessary re- calibrate the roof square; with a centre punch.
There's heaps of character- dings and dags on the plastic squares- but there's also 3-4 of them in the van ranging from new- unused to 'seen better days'. The one on my tool belt is in my hand all day. I like the metal quick squares too- but I'd rather hit the plastic ones with a chisel.... I treat them as a consumable...
Cheap, cheery and accurate... Works for me.
I have used a Mitutoyo 12" combo square on every job for about 15 years now and it is as good now as it was when new. I have several Starrett combo squares in the shop and have a 6" one that gets regular use on the job. Both are high quality precision instruments that can be trusted over the long haul.
Whatever you choose, be sure to get the "satin chrome" type of finish on the blade as I find it much easier to read and it will not rust.
Whatever you choose, be sure to get the "satin chrome" type of finish on the blade as I find it much easier to read and it will not rust.
I have a 12" Starrett combo square and it is excellent. However, I recently bought a 4" double square made by PEC from Harry Epstein as mentioned above and can vouch for its quality too. In fact, I was so impressed that I bought a PEC 24" rule that works with the Starrett head from the 12" combo square. It was a fraction of the price of the Starrett version. Something like $19 vs. $90 for the Starrett and the quality leaves nothing to be desired.
GregBradley
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I originally posted the links to Harry Epstein in a couple of threads here and two other forums.
I managed the tools for a couple machine shops and we always used Starrett or Brown & Sharpe. Mitutoyo started becoming a big maker of quality measuring tools at lower prices followed by a bunch of others at slightly lower price and quality. Starrett started trying to compete at the mid range and did not have much luck making tools at more affordable prices. We had a lot of Starrett issues on the mid range tools but their inspection level tools never seemed to fall from stellar quality. I would rate PEC $80 12" 3 piece cast Combination Square higher than the $110 Starrett equivalent. Getting that $80 PEC as a second from HJE for $30 just makes it that much better. See it here: http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/ProductsEngineering/7142-4R.html
I toured the PEC factory and saw they were making PEC, Fowler, and Mitutoyo in California. We bought some seconds directly from them but then made a deal with Harry Epstein for all their seconds. Most of them are simply cosmetic and the prices are mostly REALLY cheap. There does seem to be the occaisional one that is more than just cosmetic but Harry Epstein customer service is great. Most of the ones will say "PEC" but you will get the odd one that says "Fowler" or "Mitutoyo". In the past two years I have bought 50+ PEC items from Harry Epstein and the 2 that were below expectations were still good enough for the money that I kept them anyway for beginner use.
I think a Woodpecker 1281 for $90 combined with PEC 7104-4R 4" Double Square, 7105-4R 6" Double Square, 7121-006 6" Combination Square, and 7142-4R 12" 3 Piece Combination Square with center finder, & 7185-12 24" blade for another $90 TOTAL should cover a lot of different uses for a total of around $175. The cast heads will not last as long as the better hardened forged heads in the Starrett high end line but you are getting 4 different squares and an extra 24" blade for less than half the price of one Starrett 33HC square, which is almost $200. Even in daily use, the cast heads will stay accurate for a decade.
The one item that Starrett makes that I really like over PEC is the Model 61 6" double square that is larger in size, where PEC 4" & 6" Double Square are both the small size. I can't see paying $125 for the Model 61, though.
I have to say for woodworking type tasks the Woodpecker model 1281 is way more useful than a combination or double square for many uses. Incra makes similar, but non calibrated, squares that look really nice also. You just have to pick the right tool for the job.
I managed the tools for a couple machine shops and we always used Starrett or Brown & Sharpe. Mitutoyo started becoming a big maker of quality measuring tools at lower prices followed by a bunch of others at slightly lower price and quality. Starrett started trying to compete at the mid range and did not have much luck making tools at more affordable prices. We had a lot of Starrett issues on the mid range tools but their inspection level tools never seemed to fall from stellar quality. I would rate PEC $80 12" 3 piece cast Combination Square higher than the $110 Starrett equivalent. Getting that $80 PEC as a second from HJE for $30 just makes it that much better. See it here: http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/ProductsEngineering/7142-4R.html
I toured the PEC factory and saw they were making PEC, Fowler, and Mitutoyo in California. We bought some seconds directly from them but then made a deal with Harry Epstein for all their seconds. Most of them are simply cosmetic and the prices are mostly REALLY cheap. There does seem to be the occaisional one that is more than just cosmetic but Harry Epstein customer service is great. Most of the ones will say "PEC" but you will get the odd one that says "Fowler" or "Mitutoyo". In the past two years I have bought 50+ PEC items from Harry Epstein and the 2 that were below expectations were still good enough for the money that I kept them anyway for beginner use.
I think a Woodpecker 1281 for $90 combined with PEC 7104-4R 4" Double Square, 7105-4R 6" Double Square, 7121-006 6" Combination Square, and 7142-4R 12" 3 Piece Combination Square with center finder, & 7185-12 24" blade for another $90 TOTAL should cover a lot of different uses for a total of around $175. The cast heads will not last as long as the better hardened forged heads in the Starrett high end line but you are getting 4 different squares and an extra 24" blade for less than half the price of one Starrett 33HC square, which is almost $200. Even in daily use, the cast heads will stay accurate for a decade.
The one item that Starrett makes that I really like over PEC is the Model 61 6" double square that is larger in size, where PEC 4" & 6" Double Square are both the small size. I can't see paying $125 for the Model 61, though.
I have to say for woodworking type tasks the Woodpecker model 1281 is way more useful than a combination or double square for many uses. Incra makes similar, but non calibrated, squares that look really nice also. You just have to pick the right tool for the job.
Greg thanks for those Epstein posts earlier that is where I found out about them!
I've put the word out, they seem like a great company.
I'd better hurry up and buy the additional squares I need while they are still in stock(!)
Tour of the PEC factory? Wow that sounds super cool....
I've put the word out, they seem like a great company.
I'd better hurry up and buy the additional squares I need while they are still in stock(!)
Tour of the PEC factory? Wow that sounds super cool....
GregBradley
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That is mostly true. I'm guessing that HJE just accepts what PEC sends them as seconds and ships to buyers. I assume the ones that are not accurate are not seconds, but "thirds" or rejects or something else and HJE never sees them.sanangelo said:
About half of them only have a pin hole where there was a bubble in the cast iron that showed when the unit was machined. Barely a second. Many low end brands have more defects than that in their firsts. A few of them have something a bit off in the paint. Biggest defect I've seen is in some of the 12" heads where there is a bit of an angle on one side of the groove for the blade. I couldn't get it to lock up anywhere but straight but you have to believe it will wear out faster than a perfect one. That was the ones that I considered less than expected. However, when looking at the price I considered it well worth the money. I do understand if you bought ONE combination square and received one like that, you would still be happy but you might not be thrilled with the purchase. For $30, it is still way better than the ones you buy from the low end dealers at $30 but it might not be worth double that.
As far as Panelchat's worry that the deal will disappear, I can tell you that I've only seen one item drop off the list in the last year or so. I'm thinking it is still 90% the same list as two years ago. However, I have posted several "deal" listings on several forums in addition to this one. That probably only increases HJE sales to offset the lack of purchases from "my" businesses as California continues its struggle to drive manufacturing from the state and replace it with shopping malls, houses, and Starbucks.
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