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sancho57
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I use 2 1400 guide rails with connectors.
I agree with 106" guide rail not being long enough.
What I suggest is getting the LR32 1400 duide rail. It cost about 15 bucks more and it will save you money incase you decide to go to the LR32 at a later date.
The PG guides are for just that, ripping to WIDTH.
Ripping to length I use the MFT.
I agree with 106" guide rail not being long enough.
What I suggest is getting the LR32 1400 duide rail. It cost about 15 bucks more and it will save you money incase you decide to go to the LR32 at a later date.
The PG guides are for just that, ripping to WIDTH.
Ripping to length I use the MFT.
Hello Matt,
I found that two 1400 rails joined together works well ripping a 4x8 sheet longways. If I could do it again, I would get another 75" with rail connectors instead of the 55". 55" and a 75" joined for the long cuts and a 75" for cross cuts with parallel guides. The 55" is enough for cabinet sized boxes, but 75" gives you plenty of space and flexibility. I didn't have any issues with the connectors even with the guides at the end, but then again, 1/32" off doesn't bother me. Some people want their stuff to be laser beam straight, I was ok the chance of a little discrepancy.
As far as the rail tipping, I stole this idea from another FOG member who did the same thing with spare keys.
The metal flap supports the guides on the work piece. It has nylon washers so I can rotate it back on close cuts (for use with extensions)
The cap head is 5mm, same size as allen key on ts55.
This thread shows my workflow http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/kitchen-renovation-and-cabinet-build/ , if you don't have a MFT, it can be substituted for the parallel guides for the cross cuts. I don't have a table saw, so the system can be used in lieu of one. It just takes some figuring.
I hope this helps
-Vinny
EDIT: writing while you posted
I found that two 1400 rails joined together works well ripping a 4x8 sheet longways. If I could do it again, I would get another 75" with rail connectors instead of the 55". 55" and a 75" joined for the long cuts and a 75" for cross cuts with parallel guides. The 55" is enough for cabinet sized boxes, but 75" gives you plenty of space and flexibility. I didn't have any issues with the connectors even with the guides at the end, but then again, 1/32" off doesn't bother me. Some people want their stuff to be laser beam straight, I was ok the chance of a little discrepancy.
As far as the rail tipping, I stole this idea from another FOG member who did the same thing with spare keys.
The metal flap supports the guides on the work piece. It has nylon washers so I can rotate it back on close cuts (for use with extensions)
The cap head is 5mm, same size as allen key on ts55.
This thread shows my workflow http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/kitchen-renovation-and-cabinet-build/ , if you don't have a MFT, it can be substituted for the parallel guides for the cross cuts. I don't have a table saw, so the system can be used in lieu of one. It just takes some figuring.
I hope this helps
-Vinny
EDIT: writing while you posted
First take a look at the 3 videos I did a couple of years ago. Never again drag sheets to your tablesaw. I haven't for 3 years.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/parallel-guides-and-extensions-3-videos-on-usage-and-cutting-sheet-goods/
sorry I can't make the insert hyperlink work.
The 106" guide is a tad short on 97" sheets when the extensions are in place. Here is what I would do:
1. Buy the 106" guide. The one that is longer is too awkward to use unless you absolutely have to have the length
2. Buy a shorter guide, cut off 12" or so of it.
3. Use this cutoff with the guide extension joining gizmos to lengthen your 106 ever so slightly whenever you need to
4. The remaining cut-off will be say 2 to 3 ' long depending on what you started with. I have found I use that short guide for so many things it is unbelievable
By cutting down one guide you have (1) extended the 106 by the amount necessary, (2) made yourself a very handy guide that will probably be used more than any other guide you have, and (3) killed 2 birds with 1 stone!
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/parallel-guides-and-extensions-3-videos-on-usage-and-cutting-sheet-goods/
sorry I can't make the insert hyperlink work.
The 106" guide is a tad short on 97" sheets when the extensions are in place. Here is what I would do:
1. Buy the 106" guide. The one that is longer is too awkward to use unless you absolutely have to have the length
2. Buy a shorter guide, cut off 12" or so of it.
3. Use this cutoff with the guide extension joining gizmos to lengthen your 106 ever so slightly whenever you need to
4. The remaining cut-off will be say 2 to 3 ' long depending on what you started with. I have found I use that short guide for so many things it is unbelievable
By cutting down one guide you have (1) extended the 106 by the amount necessary, (2) made yourself a very handy guide that will probably be used more than any other guide you have, and (3) killed 2 birds with 1 stone!
I would buy the 118 inch rail -- you are correct in that they need more overhang to accomadate the guides and give you room. I think that this is the best option for ripping full sheets. Although the smaller rail works great too with the TS55 (which I do not have). Kreg McMahon has several videos posted here on using that rail and the guides for ripping full length on sheet goods that should hlp you see them in action visually and you can get a sense of how much runway he has (he also uses the TS55).
Scot
Scot
ccarrolladams
Member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2010
- Messages
- 1,451
Each of us has to develop work methods that are effective for us. I cannot say what is going to be best for you. I can only share my experience. I have been woodworking since 1937 and concentrating on building cabinets since the summer of 1946, when consumer circular saws and 4x8 sheets of plywood became available following the war.
The downside to breaking down full sheets on a table saw is that you need to push the sheet through the blade. This is less effort once the sheet is reduced in weight. A consequence of pushing sheets through a table saw is that one side will be in contact with the table, so should something hard stick to the table scratches can happen. Even with an expensive slider saw, the part against the rip fence is still resting on the stationary table. In the cross-cutting mode with a typical table saw the accuracy of the angle is based on the protractor of the miter gauge.
Going back to 1946 my method has been to start with a sacrificial surface made from a full sheet of plywood. I take my time accurately trimming one of the long factory edges so it is smooth and straight. From that clean edge I carefully render the opposite long edge smooth and parallel. Next I turn my attention to cutting each short edge at right angles to the clean long edges.
An old principle of geometry is that when you place a suspect framing square along a straight side, then draw a line, flip the device and draw another line. If the lines over-lap, that device is a perfect right angle. Obviously that flipping must happen near the center of the sheet. Once satisfied that the line is a right angle to the clean long sides, then measure the same distance from both ends of the line toward a short side. Connect those marks with a continuous line. Double check that line to be sure it is a right angle to the long sides. Carefully trim to that line. Now do the same at the far end of the sheet. Double check all four corners.
Now your sacrificial sheet is also your master for squaring all actual parts you will make from subsequent sheets. Just be sure as you cut all that subsequent sheet material you only nick the sacrificial surface. Cut through it and you get to start the smoothing of edges and squaring all over again.
Normally the first step breaking down a sheet is to clean one long edge, removing the absolute minimum of material. I like to take just enough I leave a thin strip as waste, since if the off-side of the blade is not still cutting the saw can be drawn off line.
This is where the Festool system is so efficient. The ideal rail to make the long cuts is the 3000mm (118") guide rail. That is long enough you can spread the Festool parallel guide enough it does not interfere with making the first clean up cut. Now you turn the rail around, so that the piece you are cutting is under the rail. Adjust the guide on the rail so that you have about a finger width of play. The reference points on the guide will still touch the clean edge. Of course previously you calibrated your parallel guides per the instructions. If those are not clear, use the supplemental instructions and watch one of many instructional videos. Better yet, either participate in a Festool End User Class or get a trained pal to coach you.
The idea is to use the long guide rail and the parallel guide to break down the full sheet into narrow strips of 24" or less. Those can accurately be cross-cut using the MFT/3 set. However, since your sacrificial surface has all of its corners right angles, you can confidently reference that to establish right angles when cross-cutting those narrow strips.
In actual cabinet making you will find it is rare to need to cross-cut a full 48" Remember, without an external reference the Festool Parallel Guide does not ensure right angles. That is the beauty of taking the trouble to create your sacrificial surface with all accurate right angles. Position the work in contact with a clean edge, and they you can reference from the appropriate corner. The Festool 1900mm (75") Guide Rail is ideal for use with the parallel guide for making 48" cuts. The 1400mm (55") rail is easier to carry from site to site and very handy when making cuts up to 49" with a TS55 and without the parallel guide. As I say, in the real world of cabinet making most cuts over 40" are made in the ripping mode.
Before I built my current custom cabinet shop I had learned the virtues and limitations of the CNC Pressure Beam Saw. If you have not seen one of these in action, think of Festool guide rails and the TS75 on steroids. The pressure beams are like 4 guide rails, 2 each on the top and bottom surface of the material being cut. Each pair of rails is almost touching the blade on both sides. The pressure is adjustable, but enough to minimize tear out. The saw is pulled through the work smoothly at an adjustable rate from below and the saw has a scoring blade which can be programed to either score or not the work. This cutting goes very rapidly, almost always starting with a clean up pass along the long side. So, it is line a CNC parallel guide, turning the sheet into strips with accurate parallel sides. The beauty of the beam saw is that both sides of the kerf are free of tear-out.
Once the sheet is broken down into strips, the entire stack is rotated so that one-by-one those strips are accurately cross-cut at right angles. With an experienced mill hand it takes less than 90 seconds to break down a 4x10 sheet into perfect cabinet parts.
Yes, CNC beam saws are expensive and require dedicated shop space a bit larger than a sliding table saw. Until you have a production volume to justify a beam saw, take the trouble to become at one with a sacrificial surface, your Festool track plunge saw, your guide rails and the Parallel Guide. Let me add in conclusion that the Extension accessory is worth the price, even if you seldom need to cut extra narrow strips. The weight of the extensions helps hold the guide rail in place, almost always avoiding the need to clamp the guide rail.
My shop also has 2 CNC nested routers and a CNC sliding table saw. The beam saw only makes right angles. It cannot make a bevel or miter cut. Sure the sliding table saw can do the bevels and miters very accurately, but doing so is labor intensive. So, I have a 4x18' cutting table with a sacrificial surface, drilled similar to an MFT with 20mm holes on 96mm centers. Those hole can be used as efficient references for right angles, as well as some other angles of miters.
The downside to breaking down full sheets on a table saw is that you need to push the sheet through the blade. This is less effort once the sheet is reduced in weight. A consequence of pushing sheets through a table saw is that one side will be in contact with the table, so should something hard stick to the table scratches can happen. Even with an expensive slider saw, the part against the rip fence is still resting on the stationary table. In the cross-cutting mode with a typical table saw the accuracy of the angle is based on the protractor of the miter gauge.
Going back to 1946 my method has been to start with a sacrificial surface made from a full sheet of plywood. I take my time accurately trimming one of the long factory edges so it is smooth and straight. From that clean edge I carefully render the opposite long edge smooth and parallel. Next I turn my attention to cutting each short edge at right angles to the clean long edges.
An old principle of geometry is that when you place a suspect framing square along a straight side, then draw a line, flip the device and draw another line. If the lines over-lap, that device is a perfect right angle. Obviously that flipping must happen near the center of the sheet. Once satisfied that the line is a right angle to the clean long sides, then measure the same distance from both ends of the line toward a short side. Connect those marks with a continuous line. Double check that line to be sure it is a right angle to the long sides. Carefully trim to that line. Now do the same at the far end of the sheet. Double check all four corners.
Now your sacrificial sheet is also your master for squaring all actual parts you will make from subsequent sheets. Just be sure as you cut all that subsequent sheet material you only nick the sacrificial surface. Cut through it and you get to start the smoothing of edges and squaring all over again.
Normally the first step breaking down a sheet is to clean one long edge, removing the absolute minimum of material. I like to take just enough I leave a thin strip as waste, since if the off-side of the blade is not still cutting the saw can be drawn off line.
This is where the Festool system is so efficient. The ideal rail to make the long cuts is the 3000mm (118") guide rail. That is long enough you can spread the Festool parallel guide enough it does not interfere with making the first clean up cut. Now you turn the rail around, so that the piece you are cutting is under the rail. Adjust the guide on the rail so that you have about a finger width of play. The reference points on the guide will still touch the clean edge. Of course previously you calibrated your parallel guides per the instructions. If those are not clear, use the supplemental instructions and watch one of many instructional videos. Better yet, either participate in a Festool End User Class or get a trained pal to coach you.
The idea is to use the long guide rail and the parallel guide to break down the full sheet into narrow strips of 24" or less. Those can accurately be cross-cut using the MFT/3 set. However, since your sacrificial surface has all of its corners right angles, you can confidently reference that to establish right angles when cross-cutting those narrow strips.
In actual cabinet making you will find it is rare to need to cross-cut a full 48" Remember, without an external reference the Festool Parallel Guide does not ensure right angles. That is the beauty of taking the trouble to create your sacrificial surface with all accurate right angles. Position the work in contact with a clean edge, and they you can reference from the appropriate corner. The Festool 1900mm (75") Guide Rail is ideal for use with the parallel guide for making 48" cuts. The 1400mm (55") rail is easier to carry from site to site and very handy when making cuts up to 49" with a TS55 and without the parallel guide. As I say, in the real world of cabinet making most cuts over 40" are made in the ripping mode.
Before I built my current custom cabinet shop I had learned the virtues and limitations of the CNC Pressure Beam Saw. If you have not seen one of these in action, think of Festool guide rails and the TS75 on steroids. The pressure beams are like 4 guide rails, 2 each on the top and bottom surface of the material being cut. Each pair of rails is almost touching the blade on both sides. The pressure is adjustable, but enough to minimize tear out. The saw is pulled through the work smoothly at an adjustable rate from below and the saw has a scoring blade which can be programed to either score or not the work. This cutting goes very rapidly, almost always starting with a clean up pass along the long side. So, it is line a CNC parallel guide, turning the sheet into strips with accurate parallel sides. The beauty of the beam saw is that both sides of the kerf are free of tear-out.
Once the sheet is broken down into strips, the entire stack is rotated so that one-by-one those strips are accurately cross-cut at right angles. With an experienced mill hand it takes less than 90 seconds to break down a 4x10 sheet into perfect cabinet parts.
Yes, CNC beam saws are expensive and require dedicated shop space a bit larger than a sliding table saw. Until you have a production volume to justify a beam saw, take the trouble to become at one with a sacrificial surface, your Festool track plunge saw, your guide rails and the Parallel Guide. Let me add in conclusion that the Extension accessory is worth the price, even if you seldom need to cut extra narrow strips. The weight of the extensions helps hold the guide rail in place, almost always avoiding the need to clamp the guide rail.
My shop also has 2 CNC nested routers and a CNC sliding table saw. The beam saw only makes right angles. It cannot make a bevel or miter cut. Sure the sliding table saw can do the bevels and miters very accurately, but doing so is labor intensive. So, I have a 4x18' cutting table with a sacrificial surface, drilled similar to an MFT with 20mm holes on 96mm centers. Those hole can be used as efficient references for right angles, as well as some other angles of miters.
Brice Burrell
Member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2007
- Messages
- 7,385
One thing that might help is setting up a good cutting platform if you have a lot of sheets to break down. I'll just throw down a few 2x4s on horses if I've only got a few sheets. If I more than a few to cut I'll go to the trouble of screwing (and counter sinking the heads) a layer of 3/8" or 1/2" ply on the 2x's. I'll make the platform a little longer than the sheets. That way the parallel guides have something to rest on so they don't tip.
Once I make a cut I'll pull the cut piece 2-3" away from the rest of the sheet. This gives you room to drop the stops into as you slide the guides and rail into place to cut the next piece. Remove the cut piece, then pull the sheet closer to you to make the next cut. This makes handling the guides/rail and material a lot easier.
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Once I make a cut I'll pull the cut piece 2-3" away from the rest of the sheet. This gives you room to drop the stops into as you slide the guides and rail into place to cut the next piece. Remove the cut piece, then pull the sheet closer to you to make the next cut. This makes handling the guides/rail and material a lot easier.
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Vindingo said:Hello Matt,
I found that two 1400 rails joined together works well ripping a 4x8 sheet longways. If I could do it again, I would get another 75" with rail connectors instead of the 55". 55" and a 75" joined for the long cuts and a 75" for cross cuts with parallel guides. The 55" is enough for cabinet sized boxes, but 75" gives you plenty of space and flexibility. I didn't have any issues with the connectors even with the guides at the end, but then again, 1/32" off doesn't bother me. Some people want their stuff to be laser beam straight, I was ok the chance of a little discrepancy.
As far as the rail tipping, I stole this idea from another FOG member who did the same thing with spare keys.
The metal flap supports the guides on the work piece. It has nylon washers so I can rotate it back on close cuts (for use with extensions)
The cap head is 5mm, same size as allen key on ts55.
This thread shows my workflow http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/kitchen-renovation-and-cabinet-build/ , if you don't have a MFT, it can be substituted for the parallel guides for the cross cuts. I don't have a table saw, so the system can be used in lieu of one. It just takes some figuring.
I hope this helps
-Vinny
EDIT: writing while you posted
Hey Vinny,
Did you mod your PGs to cut wider than the stock configuration? I know Brice did and a few others...been debating it and curious since you just did the kitchen job.
Thanks!
Scot
sancho57
Member
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2011
- Messages
- 7,089
this is a oldie and a moldy,
go to Kaostherie teil 1 there are 3
http://www.festool.de/Aktionen/Festool-fuer-Heimwerker/Heimwerker-Tipps-Tricks/Seiten/Heimwerker-Videos.aspx
go to Kaostherie teil 1 there are 3
http://www.festool.de/Aktionen/Festool-fuer-Heimwerker/Heimwerker-Tipps-Tricks/Seiten/Heimwerker-Videos.aspx
The 106 works great for me ripping 8' ply and even for the slightly longer melamine. Use it all the time with the parallel guides. Longer may be better but I wouldn't know because that's what I have.
Everything I do is predicated on NOT making 48" crosscuts. Not in this life. So that's an absolute like the firmness of the earth.
I use the free eCabinets software from Thermwood and go with a vertical nest to maximize 8' rips. The narrow pieces, stretchers and so on, are scattered throughout the patterns so I pretty much have to have the extensions on at all times if I'm going to be productive. My cutting platform is designed for the extensions to be attached.
Here's a picture of a typical vertical nest from eCabinets.
[attachimg=1]
My cutting platform and MFT are the same height. The bottom of the stack is around the same height. Slide a sheet off the top of the stack onto the platform then make a long rip then slide the 8' piece down to the MFT for crosscutting. Don't lift it, slide it. I try not to forget that heat index is 106 and there are 17 sheets on the pile.
I don't trust the factory edge so the first crosscut is a squaring cut. Say that the first piece I want is a 30 1/2" x 23 1/4" base cabinet side. I make the long rip. Set the stop on the MFT for 30 1/2" but leave it up. Slide the 8' long piece down so the end is just past the stop. Make a cut. Slide the off cut back a little so it's out of the way. Flip or twist the piece so the square cut is on the left, lower the stop and butt it up, lower the guide and make the cut. Label and set the finished piece aside.
Let's say I have a couple more 30 1/2 tall sides harvest from the same piece. The leading edge of the remaining 65 5/8 x 32 1/4 is automatically square. Slide it down to the stop, cut label set aside and then do this one more time. Three cabinet sides are done.
Here's a little sketch of the layout. This is done in the driveway.
[attachimg=2]
This system is faster than anything this side of numerically controlled panel processing. A sliding table saw at any price, even with pneumatic conveying can't touch it.
I fiddle with the exact placement of MFT relative to the cutting platform. If it's too close then it's hard to maneuver when ripping, too far away or you don't get support. I also fiddle with hose and vac location, where to put the saw (usually right on top of the CT) And most of all, what to do with the guide and attached arms between rips? If you bang it around you're going to mess up your zeroing. That's the down side of the whole deal and it sometimes makes me think I'd be better off with my trusty razor blades. I'm open to suggestions on all that.
I've tried the little piece screwed to the stop to prevent sag. It works of course but I don't like it. It hangs up when I'm trying to maneuver the arms.
Everything I do is predicated on NOT making 48" crosscuts. Not in this life. So that's an absolute like the firmness of the earth.
I use the free eCabinets software from Thermwood and go with a vertical nest to maximize 8' rips. The narrow pieces, stretchers and so on, are scattered throughout the patterns so I pretty much have to have the extensions on at all times if I'm going to be productive. My cutting platform is designed for the extensions to be attached.
Here's a picture of a typical vertical nest from eCabinets.
[attachimg=1]
My cutting platform and MFT are the same height. The bottom of the stack is around the same height. Slide a sheet off the top of the stack onto the platform then make a long rip then slide the 8' piece down to the MFT for crosscutting. Don't lift it, slide it. I try not to forget that heat index is 106 and there are 17 sheets on the pile.
I don't trust the factory edge so the first crosscut is a squaring cut. Say that the first piece I want is a 30 1/2" x 23 1/4" base cabinet side. I make the long rip. Set the stop on the MFT for 30 1/2" but leave it up. Slide the 8' long piece down so the end is just past the stop. Make a cut. Slide the off cut back a little so it's out of the way. Flip or twist the piece so the square cut is on the left, lower the stop and butt it up, lower the guide and make the cut. Label and set the finished piece aside.
Let's say I have a couple more 30 1/2 tall sides harvest from the same piece. The leading edge of the remaining 65 5/8 x 32 1/4 is automatically square. Slide it down to the stop, cut label set aside and then do this one more time. Three cabinet sides are done.
Here's a little sketch of the layout. This is done in the driveway.
[attachimg=2]
This system is faster than anything this side of numerically controlled panel processing. A sliding table saw at any price, even with pneumatic conveying can't touch it.
I fiddle with the exact placement of MFT relative to the cutting platform. If it's too close then it's hard to maneuver when ripping, too far away or you don't get support. I also fiddle with hose and vac location, where to put the saw (usually right on top of the CT) And most of all, what to do with the guide and attached arms between rips? If you bang it around you're going to mess up your zeroing. That's the down side of the whole deal and it sometimes makes me think I'd be better off with my trusty razor blades. I'm open to suggestions on all that.
I've tried the little piece screwed to the stop to prevent sag. It works of course but I don't like it. It hangs up when I'm trying to maneuver the arms.
I found it -- look at page 13 on the the review/PDF Brice did -- it allows for an extra 11 inches of reach or so.
http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/review%20of%20the%20festool%20parallel%20guides.pdf
Scot
http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/review%20of%20the%20festool%20parallel%20guides.pdf
Scot
Jeff Zanin
Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2009
- Messages
- 328
I get the idea of cleaning up a long edge, then using the parallel guides to rip the material into 24" or whatever strips prior to cross-cutting, but I am struggling to understand the application of the square & parallel sacrificial surface.
It sounds like this is a table but you also aligning a clean edge of the workpiece against it, then somehow using the 90° edge to make a cross cut.
Could you elaborate on the cross-cut procedure? I assume this doesn't involve the parallel guides because I think of them as being used for ripping, but maybe it does and you are somehow indexing them against the 90° edge on the sacrificial piece / table?
Jeff
It sounds like this is a table but you also aligning a clean edge of the workpiece against it, then somehow using the 90° edge to make a cross cut.
Could you elaborate on the cross-cut procedure? I assume this doesn't involve the parallel guides because I think of them as being used for ripping, but maybe it does and you are somehow indexing them against the 90° edge on the sacrificial piece / table?
Jeff
ccarrolladams said:
