Kwomer2000
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Why did festool change from pins to the paddles on the 500 fence? Tried a search and couldn't find an answer. I have the paddle system, but if I could choose I would have chosen pins.
Domino 500
- Thread starter Kwomer2000
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Cheese
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Kevin W. said:
This is a quote from Shane in a previous post.
"The design was not changed due to a patent infringement, for what it's worth. If that were the case, the DF 700 wouldn't have pins..."
"The pin design was changed for a few reasons. One reason was because glue was getting into the pin mechanism and making it stick. I would say that it's incorrect that most people prefer the pin-style. It seems fairly equally divided from my experiences. I personally have the pin model and rarely use the pins for indexing. But, that's just how I use it. I rarely use the default distance between mortises provided by the pins. The cross stops have pins if you prefer indexing in that way."
Shane
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/domino-700-or-500/msg313526/#msg313526
Kwomer2000
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Frank-Jan said:
What keyword(s) on the search engine? I'd like to read these threads. I used pin style fence and paddle style fence. That search engine leaves a lot to be desired.
Um"............how is glue getting into these pins ? [blink]
Certainly one is not morticing a hole , filling it with glue and then making another hole ?
And presumably the same thing would happen on the 700 no? But it's a different design you say? Ok, but then why wasn't that design incorporated on the 500 instead of the plastic tabs ?
Seems like a lot of corp. double talk in that response. And since when has FT ever been a champion of listening to customer feedback and adjusting their offerings?
Like fix kapex, like keep metric tools available in the U.S., like offer the full range of accessories, like keep the planer stand, like keep the small planer available, like add plug it to that planer, like make of2200 work with the router table, like bring the TS module for the U.S .......and on and on with no results and often no comments from the suits. They do what they want, or are forced to. The rest is just lip service.
Certainly one is not morticing a hole , filling it with glue and then making another hole ?
And presumably the same thing would happen on the 700 no? But it's a different design you say? Ok, but then why wasn't that design incorporated on the 500 instead of the plastic tabs ?
Seems like a lot of corp. double talk in that response. And since when has FT ever been a champion of listening to customer feedback and adjusting their offerings?
Like fix kapex, like keep metric tools available in the U.S., like offer the full range of accessories, like keep the planer stand, like keep the small planer available, like add plug it to that planer, like make of2200 work with the router table, like bring the TS module for the U.S .......and on and on with no results and often no comments from the suits. They do what they want, or are forced to. The rest is just lip service.
antss said:
Not sure if any of these is being worked on by Festool, but it certainly looks like a good list of things that is worth the attention of the Technical Improvements Review Team (if one exists in Festool, that is). Or, in the absence of any structure that deals with matters like that, the attention of just any proactive manager/executive within the organization who doesn't think in a compartmentalized way.
Kevin W. said:
If the forum search doesn't work for me (which it usually doesn't) I just do a google search, and the fog treads are in the results. (for instance: domino paddles vs pins)
My domino is the pin model, but I don't use the pins to reference out of the mortices, only the edges. When the paddles came out, I liked the idea of being able to lock them in the retracted position; (this makes it easier to align to a pencil line) but I liked the calibration method of the pins better (turning excentric bushing vs replacing a paddle for a thinner one).
antss said:
Well last time it happened to mine was when I had a missaligned mortice which I noticed during glue up. (I don't dry fit when working with mdf, because the mortices get sloppy) It had been years since the last time it happened, but fixing a stuck pin is very easy (just poke through the hole behind it with a small allen wrench)
tjbnwi
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antss said:
Miss plunge, glued without test fit.
Yes they were...
No, the 700 pin design is different than the 500 pin design.
500 change came before the 700 was introduced. The 700 face is larger.
I have all 3 indexing types, pins are without a doubt my favorite (as I stated in another recent post).
The rest, I wont give credence to....
Tom
ok, I suppose we've all been there - but so many guys at such a groundswell that the whole product needs a re-design ? Ya didn't learn your lesson the first time ?
And tell everyone about it ?
And FT's first response wasn't to produce a "training" memo and educate the masses on the "proper" use of their tool. Like that "workaround" for the issue they are having with the ill fitting guide rails because the spine widths are not consistent ? Or how about that new hose end that leaks like sieve on legacy equip. AND leaves sawdust caked in its grooves to dirty your workspace when removed ?
What was the official response ? Sorry you'll just have to lump it.
Management's first response wasn't "hey, thanks for identifying a manufacturing problem we have - we'll jump right on an improvement" It was: "you guys should check out our instagam channel for a video from our trainers on how to make yours work because we don't want to be bothered with pesky details or make real improvements". I think the FT we all know and love would have just done up a video on how guys should a. dryfit their work, and b. if that fails, clean your domino pin receptors thoroughly immediately afterwords to avoid them seizing up.
This issue also begs the question I've raised before about beta testing ? Do they do it and just who is putting these things through their paces? And , more importantly, why do those testes rarely (never) seem to encounter issues that FOG members seem to turn up within weeks of a product's NA launch ??? ??? ???
Maybe I am wrong, but if so, where did the festool that took user feedback on the domino and actually did something with it disappear to ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
tjbnwi
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antss said:
Never said I did it. Obvious from the outset to use the tool properly.
Guess people didn't.
I happened to be at FT when the problem was occurring, there was a shelf full of pin heads that were replaced due to glue. Festool replaced the heads under warranty.
There are videos from the onset of the Domino dealing with its proper use. It was posted here not to get glue on the pins.
What manufacturing problem? My pin Domino works as well today as the day I got it. I know this is not a manufacturing problem, strictly user error. Festool made an adjustment to make up for user error.
How is this Festools fault user don't use the tool properly?
So far I do not have a single Festool the does not perform its task as it is designed to do. There are things I do with them beyond what is in the manual, that's just me.
I have 36 guide rails, all of them fit together just fine.
People who beta tested tested within the parameters of the tool(s)?
Nice of Festool to shoot short videos of the proper use of the tool.
How come it's in NA most of these issues arise? Other areas users better trained? Smarter?
Tom
how bout this one:http://festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/guide-rail-saw-tracking-when-connecting-rails/
You are fortunate. Many guys do not, especially those with recent delivery. See above.
It's not. Their M.O. recently though has been not to "improve" a tool because customers are ignorant or stupid or lazy; but rather re-educate the users in proper procedure. That's my point. And, why has only domino been 'improved" because of this feedback and most/all of the other pleas go unanswered or just ignored ? Under current procedure the answer to glued pin issue realistically would have been " don't glue pins domino users, they weren't designed for that" .
Of course they are , but maybe the parameters are substandard. Do you honestly expect us to believe that the new vac connector is designed to leak ?
Seriously ?
And to accumulate so much dust in the grooves that a mess is made upon disassembly?
Get real.
FT knows of this yet has done absolutely NOTHING. And the solution doesn't require engineering, or non billable time, or even expensive re-tooling. It only takes making the previous connector available again. How come FT can't be bothered with something as easy and simple as this , but they can undertake a fence re-design and re-manufacture for guys who can't use their tool correctly?
Noticing that stuff is not ignorance or mental capacity or training that can be chalked up to Nationality. It's either testers sticking their head in the sand or being biased/ less than honest about the performance -or- there really wasn't any real world testing going on. Which, is what I suspect is really the case. Because if there was, problems like the glued domino pins and leaky, dusty vac connectors would have showed up !
Probably because we make up the majority of this board and are a big marketplace as well. Law of averages and whatnot.
tjbnwi
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antss said:
What does that have to do with the Domino? I read the thread you posted---can you tell me how many rails/people had an issue? Seeing as you think it's many, tell me how many?
I have rails from 10 years to 12 months old. I used a couple of rails owned by someone else last week. No issues at all combining the lot except his saw is set different than mine. Define "many" in relationship to number of rails sold/purchased.
So it is not an issue with Festool...You don't want to know how to or be taught how to use a tool properly? You would rather have a tool that is a compromise to proper performance?
Can't speak to the new connector. I don't use it, came with the HK, I didn't change the end. Not because of an issue, I didn't want to spend 30 seconds changing the end.
I test tools for another company, I'm probably one of the hardest on them. Would you have tested the Domino by getting glue on the pins? Doubt I would have, haven't in the years I've owned it.
Tell me what the failure rate is.
Tom
Kwomer2000
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Thanks Cheese for the help with my question about the domino 500 pin style fence.
Cheese
Member
Kevin W. said:
More than happy to respond... [big grin]
As far as searching goes, this engine's kind of clunky but I tried search items such as: Domino_DF 500_pins vs paddles_DF 500 pins_Domino problems...I then mixed and matched until I got the results I wanted.
For the previous thread that I referred to, there were only 2 threads that came up...can't remember what search terms I used for that.
I have nine rails, oldest being 8-9 years old. I had one rail that was not straight, it came with a recon 55. Bob, the man Marino had me call Festfolks and I had a new rail three days later and they told me to keep the non straight one (still in box somewhere). Until last year, when I finally bought the 3000, I had been joining lots of different configurations to get to the size I needed, never had an issue with straight (probably because I made my own 5' version of the Betterly out 8020 extrusions).
