Domino Connectors-reliable for continual assembly/disassembly?

[mbira]

Hi folks,
I know these are still quite new so there may not be many people that have opinions on the new domino connectors.  I currently have the 500, but I'm considering getting the 700 if these connectors will do what I need....

I build marimbas (like giant wooden xylophones), and I use the domino now to connect the ends of the frames (they would use the corner connectors).  It would be ideal to use these connector bolts, but I see in all the Festool literature, it says Connect even quicker, and release "if necessary".  I'm wondering since they have put in the "if necessary" if this is a system that would wear out with continual assembly and disassembly?  I am looking at building a large scale instrument for my band, and so we would be assembling and disassembling the instruments several times a week.  Can the connectors hold up to continual use like that?  My main concern is if the snap-on plastic outer shell is something that would come off over time and need to be replaced.  The metal components seem robust enough...Any thoughts?  I'm not sure if I want to invest in both a 700XL AND having the kit shipped from overseas (I'm in the US) just to learn that they won't work for me. 

 

[DoubleL]

I know it's not a Festool product, but you might want to look at these connectors, they can be used either permanently or temporarily, and might be exactly what you are looking for.

The company builds their entire display booth for trade shows with them, and are constantly assembling and dis-assembling the booth and all it's components.  They are based out of Australia, but the products are available here in the USA. I first came across them at the AWFS in Las Vegas 2 or 3 years ago, and think they are fantastic.
http://www.joinlox.com/striplox/

Larry

 

[Kev]

CKD is the purpose of the Domino D14 stuff, not collapsable on a regular basis.

 

[Svar]

Are you looking for building these instruments in large quantities or an excuse to get a new toy?  [big grin]
$2K is a steep price to connect 4 corners in one project. Anyway, those connectors don't look like they'd work for frequent disassembling.

 

[mbira]

Thanks for the replies. 

http://www.joinlox.com/striplox/

I looked at the striplox, and while they look great for some purposes I don't think they will work well for my needs.  I watched their demo video.  The issue to me is that on one side, there would be those protruding plastic hooks.  I don't think those would hold up over continual loading and unloading and if they got bent it seems like the system would fail.  Also, I just don't trust using something like epoxy and plastic, and I prefer to avoid it.  I use some metal on my instruments, but they are "high end", and I prefer all wood construction, or high end hardware.

CKD is the purpose of the Domino D14 stuff, not collapsable on a regular basis.

Is this based on anything other than opinion?  Can you give me any specifics?  Thanks!

$2K is a steep price to connect 4 corners in one project. Anyway, those connectors don't look like they'd work for frequent disassembling.

They would add $50 to the cost of the build-at least I think that's what my math told me a couple days ago, and would enable cheaper shipping and possible more sales because of easier shipping.  The cost isn't really an issue if they will do what I need.  What about them seem like they wouldn't hold up?  The plastic bit?  I'm really impressed with the quality of the metal part.

I suppose it would be an extra step, but I guess you could also just unscrew the extended metal and plastic part when you disassemble and then screw them back in when you reassemble.  It would be a little more work, but then you wouldn't have any protruding parts.

I think I'm talking myself into them.

 

[skinee]

for regular disassembly perhaps you use woodpeckers cross dowel jig:  http://www.woodpeck.com/crossdoweljig.html
you could use it with their connecting bolts and cross dowels(epoxy in the cross dowels?) or alternatively only drill the horizontal hole and use threaded inserts instead of cross dowels:       http://www.rockler.com/hex-drive-threaded-inserts-choose-size

 

[Nat X]

I actually have a box of these things (haven't finished my first build yet, though) and the only issue I can see with them is it's possible the set screws aren't meant to take a whole lot of abuse, but those should be easy to replace with some alternative fasteners that are. The plastic parts are just there to take up space and don't actually bear any serious load. I don't see any problems with what you want to do.

 

[Nat X]

Also, if the hollow plastic bits *were* a concern, you could drill a little hole and inject them full of foundation bolt anchoring epoxy for added strength. This would not be visible to anyone other than the assembler/disassembler.

 

[Kev]

CKD is the purpose of the Domino D14 stuff, not collapsable on a regular basis.

Is this based on anything other than opinion?  Can you give me any specifics?  Thanks!

[member=42371]mbira[/member] it is both an observation and common sense. If that translates as an opinion and you still think it could be a good idea to use these connects for high frequency assembly/dismantle I wish you lots of luck. Ultimate durability and longevity will come down to design, material, load and care.

As far as specifics go, these are idea for a bed frame, dining table legs, etc ... not ideal for something like a camping table. You can draw your own conclusions.

 

[Nat X]

CKD is the purpose of the Domino D14 stuff, not collapsable on a regular basis.

Is this based on anything other than opinion?  Can you give me any specifics?  Thanks!

[member=42371]mbira[/member] it is both an observation and common sense. If that translates as an opinion and you still think it could be a good idea to use these connects for high frequency assembly/dismantle I wish you lots of luck. Ultimate durability and longevity will come down to design, material, load and care.

As far as specifics go, these are idea for a bed frame, dining table legs, etc ... not ideal for something like a camping table. You can draw your own conclusions.

These are all the very definition of opinions as they include no facts of any kind.

 

[mbira]

[member=13058]Kev[/member] when you refer to these connectors not being able to be used for disassembly as "common sense", I'd love to know exactly what you mean-based on the observations you mentioned. As a professional (like you, I assume), I'm only interested in facts. Thanks!

 

[Kev]

[member=13058]Kev[/member] when you refer to these connectors not being able to be used for disassembly as "common sense", I'd love to know exactly what you mean-based on the observations you mentioned. As a professional (like you, I assume), I'm only interested in facts. Thanks!

[member=42371]mbira[/member] I'm not going to do your research for you and I won't even bother to respond to [member=41196]Nat X[/member] ...

Look at the construction examples offered by Festool. Look at typical uses of these and similar connection systems.

This is NOT a sensible approach for connecting material that will be assembled and dis-assembled with high frequency. Would you like me to give you a specific list of every item on the planet that should not be made with SYS D14 connectors? Good luck with that!

Frankly, if the obvious isn't apparent, I've got no idea what I can tell you. If you're main concern is the snap on plastic cap and you can't imagine the potential for damaging through over tightening, striping bolt heads, damaging material ends while in transit, compression of material over time impacting stability, etc ... well - I'm at a loss.

I suggest you invest in a 700 and the SYS D14 system and find out for yourself. I like the system and would happily use it for something I intended to dismantle ~5 times and would expect it to last ~50 ... but not 3 times a week for a number of years!

 

[mbira]

[member=42371]mbira[/member] I'm not going to do your research for you

I'm not asking you to do research for me, pal.  You said "observations", so I was wondering what observations those were....I see now that you mean "observations that you made on the internet".  Got it.  There are all sorts of things that people build that are not what is "typically" built.  We don't all build beds and cabinets for a living.

If you're main concern is the snap on plastic cap and you can't imagine the potential for damaging through over tightening, striping bolt heads, damaging material ends while in transit, compression of material over time impacting stability, etc ... well - I'm at a loss.

huh?  I was talking about the plastic part that snaps around the threaded bolt-not the plastic caps. 

It sounds like you have the system and that you use it.  So let me ask you a specific question (no research required!).  Have you disassembled a piece and then unscrewed the bolt from the inset piece that remains in the wood?  If so, does that inset piece remain firmly in the wood even though the screw is no longer splaying open that insert?

To get back on topic, from my experience, I'm thinking the main issues in reliability would be the possibility of that insert getting loose from expanding and contracting, and potential swelling and shrinking of the other supporting domino (though in my case, I think I'd use two connectors on each corner).  I think you could have the fit be slightly loose so you wouldn't have to tap the connection back open like at 4:20  in this video:

 

[Kev]

I haven't torture tested it because it's simply not the sort of connection system I would expect to repeatedly re-assemble. The connections have remained snug for me, without movement .. but the material you use to anchor into is the big variable (obviously, imagine chipboard v's a dense hardwood). The plastic shells won't be a source of concern, but the connector combination and use could result in an issue where the cavity in the material becomes larger over time.

If I was in your shoes my biggest concern wouldn't be whether or not the system lasted over time, it would be more concerning if I was reliant on the connector mating effectively and they failed moments before I was performing a live gig!!! [sad] [embarassed]

Take a peek at this vid

and you'll get a really good look at the component piece engineering (all of my stuff is in storage, so I can't "do real" for you at the moment). As far as CKD quality is concerned, the Festool stuff is probably 100 times better than your typical IKEA cam based stuff that gets sloppy the second time you break it down! I'd also rate the Festool stuff far more robust than the various Lamello connection systems I have - though the Lamello connectors are more "shelf" v's Festool being "bed frame" friendly.

FWIW I'm in no way trying to convince you not to buy a 700. It's a fantastic machine. I'm also hoping for a D8/10 version of the CKD connector system.

I'll just also throw in that my choice for what I'm imagining your build requires would be metal pins into metal sleeves, with an external tool-free locking clamp or clasp. You'll see connections like this made with little more than a dowel jig.

 

[Gregor]

They should work, given what I have seen from them.

Just keep in mind that they're made to pull the connection together, not to handle lateral shear forces (which have to be absorbed by normal dominos and the friction between the two joined parts). So the plan with using connectors only on a joint would need careful thought.

 

[Stone Message]

Hi [member=42371]mbira[/member]

I have not done a long term test on these connectors but I have used them and I know that they are being used in applications by professional friends where connecting and re-connecting are being used regularly (dining table extension and others).

I see no reason to doubt the longevity of the Festool connectors. There may be a need to tighten up the anchor bolt if the wood shrinks but other than that it should be good for your application.

Peter

 

[Ivan T]

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the instructions sent out with the sample connectors. I bought the Systainer Kit but the instructions are not all that clear to me. I did search the Festool Network to no avail.

 

[Stone Message]

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the instructions sent out with the sample connectors. I bought the Systainer Kit but the instructions are not all that clear to me. I did search the Festool Network to no avail.

Would this help?

Part 1:


and Part 2:


Peter

 

[Ivan T]

Peter, I did get most of my information on the Connectors from your well done videos. I believe you mentioned the instructions in the sample pack. Just wanted to get some written instructions in my Systainer as I do not think they will be used often.

 

[Stone Message]

Hi [member=7784]Ivan T[/member]

Yes, they are very good but there is also a booklet which may be possible to get in hard copy called "The Perfect Connection". Interestingly from the Festool UK web site you can find an electronic version of it but they strangely call it "The Perfect Joint" - maybe someone had something else on their mind at the time !

Here is a link to the PDF version. The instructions for the connector system starts at Page 61.
https://www.festool.net/microsite/projects/domino/downloads/manual/Festool-DOMINO-GB-en.pdf

Good luck.

Peter