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domino strength
- Thread starter pfy333
- Start date
pfy333 said:would you trust the domino enough to build a fish tank cabinet to carry 800 to 900 lbs?
As a first inclination, I would say "NO"
This comes from the fact that I do not really know and I will be interrested in what others have to say. 900lbs is nearly 1/2 ton. A lot of weigth that might be suportable if the tank were never moved. i don't know it there is any motion detectable from fish moving in the water, but I don't think i would sleep too well thinking about it.
i am sure somebody has more factual info.
Tinker
I would have to say YES, but it would depend on the design of the structure. ie I would not put a 100 gal. tank on top of a hall table. The design if made with solid wood could have an apron and 2 stretchers per leg vs. the one apron to leg connection of a small hall table. Armed with and appropriate design you and your domino can do anything ;D
Eiji Fuller
Eiji Fuller
It's all about design. The weight of the tank should be transferred to the floor through the frame, with the legs in compression. As long as there is no tension on the joints there should be no problem at all. The joint angles should be designed so that they are mostly under compression, more weight, more pressure holding the joint together.
Last year (before the Domino) I made a cabinet stand to hold my 30 gallon aquarium. It had a frame made up of four 1 1/2" square maple posts with 3/4" x 2" maple rails fitted together with mortise and tenon joinery. The stand is very solid. One half has two drawers over a small door and the other side has one door as to allow easy access to the canister filter. Been very happy with it. I also used steel levelers in each corner so I could make the cabinet level after all the weight of water, rocks, etc. had been added. I would think that using the right size and amount of Dominoes would work, but I haven't tried it yet.
Tom
Tom
Thanks for the reply guys. I am a total begginer and just trying to grasp the vocabulary of woodworking. I went into our local woodcraft store looking for a tablesaw, instead the salesman shows me these green tools. Lets just say I ended spending alot of money. I have made a cabinet for my 30 gal. about a year ago with less than stellar tools ( 18v milwaukee circular saw and stock blade w/out the bolt to make bevel cuts). I made that cabinet w/ mahogony and 1 X 3 leg post to carry the weight, and held together with wood screws. I guess I am more worried about the dominos working its way loose or when the glue begin to deteriorate (if it ever does I have no clue). I never work with glue joint of any sort. Infact I just learn what a biscuit is from you guys posting.
I bet almost any plans you'd find for the stand would be made better with a domino, but I would say start sticking stuff together with it to practice your joints. Come back to this thread with your ideas for the cabinet before you build it if you want to, there's many here to help you.
Some even have really good advice ;D
Some even have really good advice ;D
I have been making several letter trays for friends & familly. planing the wood sides down to 3/8" and dovetailed joints (w/WoodRat)
I am getting closer to the probability of getting the Domino. I have a couple of larger projects planned. I like the designs I have seen where the domino is exposed and plan to do same for these letter trays.
I would make some of them with butt type corners and some with beveled corners.
I am wondering if 3/8" wood is too thin to use even the smallest Domino's.
Tinker
I am getting closer to the probability of getting the Domino. I have a couple of larger projects planned. I like the designs I have seen where the domino is exposed and plan to do same for these letter trays.
I would make some of them with butt type corners and some with beveled corners.
I am wondering if 3/8" wood is too thin to use even the smallest Domino's.
Tinker
3/8" is about 9.5mm if my math is not totally off...
smallest dom is 5mm. It'd be tight, not much room for error. 2.25mm per side. Mirko is the sharpshooter around here. The trouble might be in spacing the machine itself for a centered plunge. the fence would be too high for this I think. You'd have to have a spacer for it.
smallest dom is 5mm. It'd be tight, not much room for error. 2.25mm per side. Mirko is the sharpshooter around here. The trouble might be in spacing the machine itself for a centered plunge. the fence would be too high for this I think. You'd have to have a spacer for it.
Thanks for the help. After thinking about the way dominos work, I can see how it can work depending on design like some of you have suggested. I do not have the Domino and hopefully it will arrive this coming friday. When I get it, for sure I will be messing with it just to see how strong it is. Thanks again and am glad I found this website, definately alot to learn.
Jerry Work
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2007
- Messages
- 307
Hi,
I have been on travel so just read your question. While I agree with the other posters that design is the issue, not the strength of a Domino joint, I think there is a far better way to build your stand than by using loose tenon jointery at all. If I were doing your job the Domino would play an important role, but not one of carrying any load but sheer as explained below. Instead I would think dining room table on steroids. Build 4 stout legs of whatever design you wish. Cut female dovetail slots on the inside top two surfaces of each leg 15mm shorter than the height of the proposed skirt. Cut matching male DTs on the ends of each skirt so all the weight is carried as sheer load on the very strong end grain of the skirt pieces. The skirt pieces will load from the top of the leg and bottom out on the end of the female DT slot cut in the leg. The only way that joint can break under down force is to sheer off the male DT on the end of the skirt. Don't glue or mount these yet. Every 300mm or so cut mirrored female DT slots on the inside edge of the long skirt pieces and male DTs on cross members that will fit across your assembly. Now cut mirrored female DT slots on the inside face of the short skirts and the matching face on the two outter most cross members and join them by male DTs on stringers. Don't assemble anything even yet. Now turn your legs upside down and cut female DT slots up from the bottom on the inside faces of each leg to hold a cross stringer about 100mm or so off of the bottom of the legs at the ends of your table. Make matching cross braces with male DTs. Make one final female DT slot in the center of each of these two leg cross braces. Cut a male with DTs on each end to connect the two leg cross braces. If your legs stand straight up and down (a good idea with this much weight and the possiblity of a side load if some one bumps into the full fish tank from the side or end) all this is easy as the skirt end pieces will be the same length as the leg braces. Do all the mirrored female DT slots by aligning pieces on the top of a MFT and using the guide rail to rout the female slots at the same time in both pieces. That way even if your measurements are off a bit the slots will all line up. Make it easy on yourself and use 20mm x 100mm stock for all the skirts and braces and 10mm deep DTs cut with a 20mm DT bit. Using a 20mm bit with 20mm stock means you will be removing the minimum stock from the pieces with the male DTs while still allowing plenty of shoulder on the pieces with the female DT slots. Now comes time to assemble and this is where I would use the Domino. The strength of a sliding DT joint is derived from keeping the male component from sliding in the female slot. The shape of the joint itself does all the rest of the strength stuff. Assemble the top skirt, cross braces and the end stringers upside down on a flat reference surface like an MFT. Start by glueing the legs to the four skirt pieces to hold the corners of your assembly. Don't worry about squaring as this will occur "automagically" if your skirts, cross braces and stringers are all cut to proper length. Just make sure the top of each leg and the top edge of each skirt piece is fully seated down against the MFT top surface so those will be flush in your completed stand. Obviously you will need to cut off a bit of the male DT on each stringer since you cut the female DT in each leg shorter than the overall width of the skirt. Once all four legs are in place, now glue and set in place the outter most cross pieces. Make sure the top edge of each is also down flush on to the MFT top surface. Those nice clamps will help hold everything down flush with the top of the MFT. Put some paper down under each joint to keep the glue from sticking to the top of the MFT. Once those are nice and flush, use the Domino machine to cut an 8 or 10mm slot parallel with and in the center of the female DT slot on the inside of the skirt through and into the end of the male pieces where the cross members fit into the skirts and where the end stretchers fit into the cross skirt and the outter most stringer. Glue in the domino. All it is doing is keeping the male portion of the DT from sliding in the female slot. Continue with the other cross members pinning each with the domino that project through from the outside of the skirt and into the end of the cross member. Once those are done drop the leg braces and leg cross members in place pinning the leg brace to the cross member with dominos as well. Now you have created a very strong stable platform for your fish tank that will take a great deal of down force and also withstand quit a bit of side load. In effect you created a torson box with braced legs and that is a very strong structure indeed. None of the dominos are in anything but sheer load and even there they are just pinning the long glue surfaces of the DT joints that are themselves in sheer load. The only load other than sheer anywhere in this assembly is side thrust leverage on the torsion box and where the skirts mate to the legs. Each of those joints constitute the web of an "I" beam and as such the side load becomes compression on the part of one member and tension on the mirrored part of its mating member repeated at the top and bottom of the "I" beam web. Each load is also transmitted to another part of the structure. Failure will come under load only when the wood itself fractures. None of the joints will fail. If you want to make it even stronger (no need unless your load really gets high) simply glue and screw a sheet of plywood to the upper and lower surfaces of your torsion box and add diagonal braces from the bottom of the torsion box to the legs. Hope this helps.
Jerry
I have been on travel so just read your question. While I agree with the other posters that design is the issue, not the strength of a Domino joint, I think there is a far better way to build your stand than by using loose tenon jointery at all. If I were doing your job the Domino would play an important role, but not one of carrying any load but sheer as explained below. Instead I would think dining room table on steroids. Build 4 stout legs of whatever design you wish. Cut female dovetail slots on the inside top two surfaces of each leg 15mm shorter than the height of the proposed skirt. Cut matching male DTs on the ends of each skirt so all the weight is carried as sheer load on the very strong end grain of the skirt pieces. The skirt pieces will load from the top of the leg and bottom out on the end of the female DT slot cut in the leg. The only way that joint can break under down force is to sheer off the male DT on the end of the skirt. Don't glue or mount these yet. Every 300mm or so cut mirrored female DT slots on the inside edge of the long skirt pieces and male DTs on cross members that will fit across your assembly. Now cut mirrored female DT slots on the inside face of the short skirts and the matching face on the two outter most cross members and join them by male DTs on stringers. Don't assemble anything even yet. Now turn your legs upside down and cut female DT slots up from the bottom on the inside faces of each leg to hold a cross stringer about 100mm or so off of the bottom of the legs at the ends of your table. Make matching cross braces with male DTs. Make one final female DT slot in the center of each of these two leg cross braces. Cut a male with DTs on each end to connect the two leg cross braces. If your legs stand straight up and down (a good idea with this much weight and the possiblity of a side load if some one bumps into the full fish tank from the side or end) all this is easy as the skirt end pieces will be the same length as the leg braces. Do all the mirrored female DT slots by aligning pieces on the top of a MFT and using the guide rail to rout the female slots at the same time in both pieces. That way even if your measurements are off a bit the slots will all line up. Make it easy on yourself and use 20mm x 100mm stock for all the skirts and braces and 10mm deep DTs cut with a 20mm DT bit. Using a 20mm bit with 20mm stock means you will be removing the minimum stock from the pieces with the male DTs while still allowing plenty of shoulder on the pieces with the female DT slots. Now comes time to assemble and this is where I would use the Domino. The strength of a sliding DT joint is derived from keeping the male component from sliding in the female slot. The shape of the joint itself does all the rest of the strength stuff. Assemble the top skirt, cross braces and the end stringers upside down on a flat reference surface like an MFT. Start by glueing the legs to the four skirt pieces to hold the corners of your assembly. Don't worry about squaring as this will occur "automagically" if your skirts, cross braces and stringers are all cut to proper length. Just make sure the top of each leg and the top edge of each skirt piece is fully seated down against the MFT top surface so those will be flush in your completed stand. Obviously you will need to cut off a bit of the male DT on each stringer since you cut the female DT in each leg shorter than the overall width of the skirt. Once all four legs are in place, now glue and set in place the outter most cross pieces. Make sure the top edge of each is also down flush on to the MFT top surface. Those nice clamps will help hold everything down flush with the top of the MFT. Put some paper down under each joint to keep the glue from sticking to the top of the MFT. Once those are nice and flush, use the Domino machine to cut an 8 or 10mm slot parallel with and in the center of the female DT slot on the inside of the skirt through and into the end of the male pieces where the cross members fit into the skirts and where the end stretchers fit into the cross skirt and the outter most stringer. Glue in the domino. All it is doing is keeping the male portion of the DT from sliding in the female slot. Continue with the other cross members pinning each with the domino that project through from the outside of the skirt and into the end of the cross member. Once those are done drop the leg braces and leg cross members in place pinning the leg brace to the cross member with dominos as well. Now you have created a very strong stable platform for your fish tank that will take a great deal of down force and also withstand quit a bit of side load. In effect you created a torson box with braced legs and that is a very strong structure indeed. None of the dominos are in anything but sheer load and even there they are just pinning the long glue surfaces of the DT joints that are themselves in sheer load. The only load other than sheer anywhere in this assembly is side thrust leverage on the torsion box and where the skirts mate to the legs. Each of those joints constitute the web of an "I" beam and as such the side load becomes compression on the part of one member and tension on the mirrored part of its mating member repeated at the top and bottom of the "I" beam web. Each load is also transmitted to another part of the structure. Failure will come under load only when the wood itself fractures. None of the joints will fail. If you want to make it even stronger (no need unless your load really gets high) simply glue and screw a sheet of plywood to the upper and lower surfaces of your torsion box and add diagonal braces from the bottom of the torsion box to the legs. Hope this helps.
Jerry
pfy333 said:would you trust the domino enough to build a fish tank cabinet to carry 800 to 900 lbs?
brandon.nickel
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2007
- Messages
- 241
Ouch. My head hurts. Jerry, I would personally find your post more readable if you were to provide some paragraphing. You have such excellent information that I get frustrated in losing my place and having to search for it. Then again, maybe I should set my monitor for a larger font size...
Reference to-------Ouch. My head hurts. Jerry, I would personally find your post more readable if you were to provide some paragraphing. You have such excellent information that I get frustrated in losing my place and having to search for it. Then again, maybe I should set my monitor for a larger font size...
It would be easy to copy and paste the post into a word processing program, and then select all and apply a double space to the doc. I am a new Festool system owner and enjoy the ideas and comments.
Thanks,
Imacman
It would be easy to copy and paste the post into a word processing program, and then select all and apply a double space to the doc. I am a new Festool system owner and enjoy the ideas and comments.
Thanks,
Imacman
Jerry Work
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2007
- Messages
- 307
Jerry Work
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2007
- Messages
- 307
Hi Brandon,
It was paragraphed when posted but that must have been lost some where along the way through cyber space.
Jerry
It was paragraphed when posted but that must have been lost some where along the way through cyber space.
Jerry
brandon.nickel said:Ouch. My head hurts. Jerry, I would personally find your post more readable if you were to provide some paragraphing. You have such excellent information that I get frustrated in losing my place and having to search for it. Then again, maybe I should set my monitor for a larger font size...
Thanks Jerry for taking the time to help me out (very descriptive I might add), and the fact that there are many creative ways to build in woodworking. That example you gave was definately something I probably would never have thought of. Imagaine that, no screws and a cabinet to hold 800+ lbs. My Domino just arrived on Thursday and I have not tried it yet, but for sure I will sample some cuts today. Just want to thank Mr. Bob Marino for hooking me up with great service, speedy delivery and working with me on shipping. You have my business for sure.
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