Drum Sander Dust Collection

[donnenwerth woodworking]

Well I've finally hit a snag in my shop with my limited power source. 

I have all of my 220v items on a 50 amp circuit which was all I had available from the house to run into my shop. 

My issue now is since I've upgraded my Dust Collector to a 5 hp Clearvue Cyclone this is the first time running my Grizzly 5 HP drum sander at the same time. 

It was working fine at minimal turns - 1/16 of a turn per pass as soon as i cranked it a bit more to where the drum sander had to work a little it would kick the breaker out. 

I am now looking at other options for dust collection for the drum sander.  I've looked into 1 hp wall units with an upgraded collection bag?  or I was thinking a larger shop vac with dust bag? 

I know dust collection on this unit is terrible to start with, the cyclone was doing a great job when running, but it was too time consuming to continue with that many passes and removing minimal material each time. 

Just looking for any feed back on what anyone else uses for this or any other thoughts.

Thanks,

Pat

 

[rvieceli]

Pat. I think it might be a good opportunity to take a look at upgrading the power feed to your shop.

Some questions to help.   

Is the shop detached? If so, how far is the feeds run.

How is the power fed now? Do you have a sub panel?

Thanks. Ron

 

[Cheese]

I go along with Ron, time to look at upgrading the wiring. Because both of the 5HP machines are single phase 220V, they're drawing almost 47 amps. On a 50 amp circuit, that doesn't leave much left for lighting or anything else. That's a shame because the equipment sounds nice. [smile]

 

[donnenwerth woodworking]

Yeah I contacted the power company - consumers power when we first bought the house a year ago.  they gave me a quote of $8500 to run another 100 amp service to my shop.  Isn't exactly a clear path and they would have to upgrade the transformer across the road to do so.    Shocked by this quote because that was my first thought as a separate service, which would be nice to know some of my running cost.  However I don't really see this as an option.  I'd rather put that money towards another building at some point as I grow. 

So I ended up running 50 amps from a sub panel that fed our heated driveway (no one knew if it works anyway or even if its on/off,  House was built in 1958.  I believe the garage and addition were in the 70's when they probably added the driveway and electric grid for the heated driveway. 

The lighting and all of my 110v is on a separate 30 amp feed that was original to the garage.  I just added the 50 amp sub panel to feed all of my 220v equipment.  I actually have a 5 hp 3 phase model 66 table saw - running off a 10 hp 3 phase rotary converter, which has no issue when running with the 5 hp cyclone dust collector.  I believe that only runs at 23 amps.

So thats where I was looking at other options for just dust collection on the drum sander alone.  I know all of my other equipment has no issues with running under 50 amps when being used at the same time as my d/c.  3 hp planer, 2 - 3 hp shapers,  5 hp 3 phase table saw. 

 

[nickao]

Just get this this little 1.5 hp  110Volt Jet, its whats connected to my drum sander and planer. I have a Grizzly 5HP cyclone as well.

Only 450.00 free ship no tax. Believe me, this older non Vortex model for 450.00 with the canister filter is a good deal and will work WAY better than a wall mounted 1HP unit or a CT style collector. I can measure the current draw if you want me to. Mice is set up on 110volt(it can go 220V too).

You know what I contacted that guy, it says no filter if that means no cannister forget it. Ill find out soon enough.
https://www.amazon.com/708636-Model..._6?ie=UTF8&qid=1478112203&sr=8-6&keywords=jet+1.5HP++collector

Or you could get the Vortex for 200.00 more, same CFM though:
https://www.amazon.com/Jet-DC-1100V...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QAWR0SDFKDNSDXKMPAFE

Another idea is to get the harbor fired 1.5HP unit. I have had one a a cnc table for two years and it works fine. i added a canister to t for 179.0. I got collector on sale for 179.00.

 

[rvieceli]

I'd still think about doing something to upgrade the service. I'd suggest talking to an electrician about your options.

Depending on what size of service you have in the main house now, you may be able to run something bigger to the shop.

Many times when you run a separate feed and meter to an outbuilding you'll have to eat the entire cost from the power company. But if you upgrade your service at the main house enough to run 90 or 100 amps to the shop sub panel on your own, the power company may not charge much at all.

Our POCO generally wants to charge commercial rates and make the user eat the cost of the feeds for a second meter on the same property. But the cost to upgrade the service at the house from 100 amp to 200 amp or more isn't that much.

 

[Cheese]

Many times when you run a separate feed and meter to an outbuilding you'll have to eat the entire cost from the power company. But if you upgrade your service at the main house enough to run 90 or 100 amps to the shop sub panel on your own, the power company may not charge much at all.

Great idea Ron, that's exactly what I found out earlier this year while trying to upgrade the service to my garage. Xcel wanted to hang a meter on the outside of the garage and then charge me $15 per month just for the meter. I decided that next summer, I'll upgrade the house service from 100 to 200 amps and then run the larger feed to the garage.

 

[Huxleywood]

The biggest issue here is the DS is probably the machine in your shop that needs the most CFM for good dust collection and it produces nasty fines almost exclusively.  A 3hp DC vented outdoors would probably work nearly as well a CV with filters and probably keep you from overamping but I wouldn't want to run a larger DS with any less.

 

[Gregor]

https://www.amazon.com/708636-Model..._6?ie=UTF8&qid=1478112203&sr=8-6&keywords=jet+1.5HP++collector

A while back I used similar (different branding) collectors to collect powders from air bed dryers. My finding was that these type of collectors are fine for coarser materials but they fail miserably at separation and collection of fine dust (like what is being generated by sanding):

The filter on the top farts out a cloud of fine particles till it is impacted by material, cleaning (by rotating the handle, when turned off) leads to more fine dust being emittet (as the dust cake impacting the filter turns back to individual dust particles, which then get shaken through the filter) and afterwards the cycle repeats till the filter is impacted again. As the filters are manually agitated by the cleaning mechanism they wore out relatively quickly (especially at the inner folds), and after a while even developed little holes which then emittet plumes of fine dust (till getting clogged, or eventually glued shut).

Needless to say: that approach was scrapped quickly and replaced by a good cyclone (to get the bulk of the material) attached to a HEPA vacs (to get the rest, we had two in parallel for higher airflow) as a superior solution: that was way better in capturing the fine particles as everything that was captured stayed that way instead of a part of it being emitted back into the environment.

Please keep in mind that a generation of carpenters had been, most likely, killed off by the introduction of power tools: these (compared to hand tools) create higher amounts of dust in finer particle sizes and the fine dust (which is able to penetrate the lung deeply in the mission to induce cancer) is what'll kill you, eventually.

So should someone want to go with the linked collectors when it comes to find dust: put them into a separate, dust-tight, enclosed space and route the exhaust air from that directly to the outside (to just destroy nature and neighbours) instead of cycling it back into the shop.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Great post Gregor!

 

[nickao]

https://www.amazon.com/708636-Model..._6?ie=UTF8&qid=1478112203&sr=8-6&keywords=jet+1.5HP++collector

A while back I used similar (different branding) collectors to collect powders from air bed dryers. My finding was that these type of collectors are fine for coarser materials but they fail miserably at separation and collection of fine dust (like what is being generated by sanding):

The filter on the top farts out a cloud of fine particles till it is impacted by material, cleaning (by rotating the handle, when turned off) leads to more fine dust being emittet (as the dust cake impacting the filter turns back to individual dust particles, which then get shaken through the filter) and afterwards the cycle repeats till the filter is impacted again. As the filters are manually agitated by the cleaning mechanism they wore out relatively quickly (especially at the inner folds), and after a while even developed little holes which then emittet plumes of fine dust (till getting clogged, or eventually glued shut).

Needless to say: that approach was scrapped quickly and replaced by a good cyclone (to get the bulk of the material) attached to a HEPA vacs (to get the rest, we had two in parallel for higher airflow) as a superior solution: that was way better in capturing the fine particles as everything that was captured stayed that way instead of a part of it being emitted back into the environment.

Please keep in mind that a generation of carpenters had been, most likely, killed off by the introduction of power tools: these (compared to hand tools) create higher amounts of dust in finer particle sizes and the fine dust (which is able to penetrate the lung deeply in the mission to induce cancer) is what'll kill you, eventually.

So should someone want to go with the linked collectors when it comes to find dust: put them into a separate, dust-tight, enclosed space and route the exhaust air from that directly to the outside (to just destroy nature and neighbours) instead of cycling it back into the shop.

Your thoughts are 100% agreed with, but they dont account for the OP actual conditions.  He has a cyclone and cant use it and was thinking of using a wall mounted 1HP unit I suggested this a better alternative, and it is.

I have this very  collector(mine has the vortex upgrade) on my drum sander and it's better than the 1HP wall unit he was going to use. I also have a 5HP grizzly central collector, yet I use the Jet for my drum sander becasue of similar issues as the OP. I have no issue with the paddle like you did so I am not sure what unit you actually are tried using.

For the record venting to the outside is illegal in my county and about 50% of every county in the US..

 

[mike_aa]

Wynn Environmental has filters that filter to .5 micron and will fit many woodworking dust collectors.  I upgraded my old Delta unit about 10 years ago when I first learned that the cloth bag filter that came with it only got down to about 5-7 microns.

Hope this helps.

Mike A.

 

[nickao]

I have that filter and the harbor fright collector with it. I bought the harbor freight with coupon for 179.00 and it was a great deal, I cant believe how good it is for that price. Adding a canister to it is a great deal, until I found  a Jet with canister on sale for near the same price.

That Harbor Freight is far more powerful than my CT 48 and I have used it a good 4 hours a day for 2 years, its on right now. It is funny a crappy Harbor Freight with all my Festools and other German tools right next to it.

The Wynn canister was a HUGE mistake, I hate it.

This does EXACTLY as the poster said about filling with fine dust. And there is no paddle handle. So the only way to clean the thing is a make a huge mess, bring it outside and use compressed air or a bruush high compressed air will ruin it.. The mess defeats the entire purpose of having a canister!

If you want a canister dont go Wynn, get a Dust Dog or something that uses a cleaning system, either  a paddle or even better an up down brush like the Grizzly.

The Wynn filter works, but the cleaning  makes it useless for me. I am getting a new canister as soon as I see one on sale. I contact Wyn they state using a paddle will ruin the filter and so will compressed  air if not super careful. Some companies advise using compressed air ad have a paddle, just proving the Wynn paper is not tough. Even the metal casing around the Wynn is weak, it has totally dented on me by just bumping up on it.

Don't get me wrong the thing works well. Someone will get a good deal from me when I sell it, but it gets cold here so in the winter cleaning it just make my shop full of dust, I cant have that.

 

[mike_aa]

I have that filter and the harbor fright collector with it. I bought the harbor freight with coupon for 179.00 and it was a great deal, I cant believe how good it is for that price. Adding a canister to it is a great deal, until I found  a Jet with canister on sale for near the same price.

That Harbor Freight is far more powerful than my CT 48 and I have used it a good 4 hours a day for 2 years, its on right now. It is funny a crappy Harbor Freight with all my Festools and other German tools right next to it.

The Wynn canister was a HUGE mistake, I hate it.

This does EXACTLY as the poster said about filling with fine dust. And there is no paddle handle. So the only way to clean the thing is a make a huge mess, bring it outside and use compressed air or a bruush high compressed air will ruin it.. The mess defeats the entire purpose of having a canister!

If you want a canister dont go Wynn, get a Dust Dog or something that uses a cleaning system, either  a paddle or even better an up down brush like the Grizzly.

The Wynn filter works, but the cleaning  makes it useless for me. I am getting a new canister as soon as I see one on sale. I contact Wyn they state using a paddle will ruin the filter and so will compressed  air if not super careful. Some companies advise using compressed air ad have a paddle, just proving the Wynn paper is not tough. Even the metal casing around the Wynn is weak, it has totally dented on me by just bumping up on it.

Don't get me wrong the thing works well. Someone will get a good deal from me when I sell it, but it gets cold here so in the winter cleaning it just make my shop full of dust, I cant have that.

[member=3373]Dovetail65[/member] With all due respect, IMHO, the inconvenience of not having a paddle is far outweighed by the size of particles that are filtered out.  I believe the Dust Deputy only filters down to 2 microns and the Wynn goes to .5 micron.  YMMV, but in my case I'd rather go with the better filtration.

Mike A.

 

[Huxleywood]

[member=3373]Dovetail65[/member] With all due respect, IMHO, the inconvenience of not having a paddle is far outweighed by the size of particles that are filtered out.  I believe the Dust Deputy only filters down to 2 microns and the Wynn goes to .5 micron.  YMMV, but in my case I'd rather go with the better filtration.

Mike A.

I think the key is the high MERV filters like the Wynn are designed to best be used with some significant form of pretreatment.  Using them in a way that they require FREQUENT cleaning is not the way they were meant to be used. 

The issue here again is a DS or wide belt sander produces a huge amount of very fine dust and it and a wide belt sander are the machines found in woodshops that need the highest CFM and the best filtration.  The OP has the correct tools for the job but just doesn't have the electrical supply to run them. 

Here are the alternatives

Use a dust collector with bags which keeps the amperage low enough.  The problem here is the poor filtration of the bags with just allow the shop to fill up with fines.

Use a dust collector with cartridge filters which keeps the amp draw low enough to run.  The problem is if the filters are high enough MERV to protect the lungs they will clog quickly with the type of waste a DS gives off, use more "open" filters and although they don't clog as quickly they are spewing the worst offending fines back into the air.  If one puts a smaller cyclone in front of the dust collector you will need a fairly strong DC to keep the CFM up but the better filters will not closg nearly as quickly.

Use the motor/blower from a DC to vent outside.  This is the best option of cheap vs CFM.  If it runs afoul of the law in one's jusisdiction simply put the bag section from the DC on the outside and vent through it, like a "bag house".  If only used for the DS the bags will rarely if ever fill up since the vast majority of the fines from a DS will simply pass through them. 

My solution weighing cost, efficacy and amp draw would be to buy a cheap 3hp DC with bags and vent outside through the bags if needed. 

 

[Gregor]

Your thoughts [...] dont account for the OP actual conditions.

Sorry for ignoring the OP.

My comment was solely on the linked devices as I deem them, out of my personal experience, a massive health risk when used for collecting sander dust in a no-venting-to-the-outside setup. YMMV, but at least please take a close look at the spec of the supplied filter (and if the separation rating on them was measured in clean or impacted condition, as most are the latter so cleaning them will make them more permeable till they impact again).