Festool domino XL balcony build
- Thread starter Nigel
- Start date
Really nice work, in what appears to be a lovely setting/location!
I seem to remember a thread a while back where someone was making an oak post and beam structure using the 14mm sipo dominos and there was some debate about the suitability of dominos for such structural, weight bearing work when suspended, as opposed to traditional M&T joinery. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this and if there was any maths, science, testing, etc that gave you the confidence to go with the dominos on this project that you could share?
I seem to remember a thread a while back where someone was making an oak post and beam structure using the 14mm sipo dominos and there was some debate about the suitability of dominos for such structural, weight bearing work when suspended, as opposed to traditional M&T joinery. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this and if there was any maths, science, testing, etc that gave you the confidence to go with the dominos on this project that you could share?
Thanks for the comments guys. No science involved. My confidence is based on the fact that the top beam is cemented 45cms into the walls, so I reckon it takes most of the weight on it's own.As mentioned M +T would be traditional on this but multiple sipo doms and polyurethane glue have to be good for years. The main frame is Iroko and the deck is Bankirai. In theory it doesn't need any protection as it's well off the ground and hardwoods like this contain a lot of oils naturally and are very durable without treatment. Finally to some 1 like me I say Good old Makita! [tongue] [tongue] But wait! What about the music???
[member=6152]Nigel[/member]
I think I'll give you that one then [big grin] .. I'd feel just as confident based on that!
[/quote] Cheers Kev [smile].
I think I'll give you that one then [big grin] .. I'd feel just as confident based on that!
[/quote] Cheers Kev [smile].
Hi awl66, Thanks! and yeah grew up on Floyd. Dave Gilmour's incredible guitar playing inspired me to pick one up years ago.Those old Floyd are just amazing and still inspiring today. Cheers.awil66 said:
The finished job looks really smart !Nigel said:
My concern would be the choice of pu glue with oily end grain timber. Once the timbers moved a little the oily timber will break the glue joint. In effect you'll have a loose unglued tenon. A traditional drawbored mortice and tenon would have been a better choice imho.
When I say oils I don't think it is that oily. The frames have been in since October 2015 and there is no movement on the joints at all yet not even a hairline crack and we get extremes of temperature here sometimes - below zero in the morning and over 20 in the afternoon. Pu glue is very persistent and hard to shift. I wouldn't like to try to get one of those joint apart! I guess time will tell but I am confident it will last for years. Cheers. [smile]
Kev
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Festoolfootstool said:
When I was watching that I was thinking how challenging it would be to run a railing length through the router table evenly using one of the large banister bits I've got [eek] ... you're deffo taking a lot of meat out in a pass!
Okay, I would of thought it wise to do some basic calcs for a balcony of that size.
Off the top of my head Here in the UK where I am the basic dead load is 0.65kN/m2 with an imposed load for residential being 1.5kN/m2, this obviously needs to have additional loads attached depending on where you are in the world, I.e for snow ect:
If this was not residential then commercial loads apply and you need to meet the loads for which the balcony is attached to, if it was off a bar or something then it is like 5kN/m2 I think.
Also in the UK we have to justify the fixing of the handrail to the base of the balcony, residential is a horizontal load of 0.74kN/m2 at 1.1m above the balcony deck. This is a tough number to achieve with just timber.
It's a great looking balcony mate and well made but just looking at it, it could easily fit 20 15 stone blokes on there all leaning on the handrail looking at the view. I'm just surprised that no calcs were done for job this size, especially as it's on gallows brackets and not cantilevered or has vertical support posts.
Off the top of my head Here in the UK where I am the basic dead load is 0.65kN/m2 with an imposed load for residential being 1.5kN/m2, this obviously needs to have additional loads attached depending on where you are in the world, I.e for snow ect:
If this was not residential then commercial loads apply and you need to meet the loads for which the balcony is attached to, if it was off a bar or something then it is like 5kN/m2 I think.
Also in the UK we have to justify the fixing of the handrail to the base of the balcony, residential is a horizontal load of 0.74kN/m2 at 1.1m above the balcony deck. This is a tough number to achieve with just timber.
It's a great looking balcony mate and well made but just looking at it, it could easily fit 20 15 stone blokes on there all leaning on the handrail looking at the view. I'm just surprised that no calcs were done for job this size, especially as it's on gallows brackets and not cantilevered or has vertical support posts.
danbox said:
I had very similar thoughts. It's a beautiful deck and shows some really top notch craftsmanship. But I did wonder about all the potential weight if it got loaded up with a family's get-together, etc and all that weight being transmitted down the braces onto the dominos.
Maybe the OP should do some maths and if it is discovered to be necessary some vertical supports wouldn't be the end of the world to retrofit.
OK guys calm down. Not cantilevered? Of course it is. The top beam is embedded 45cms into the wall. Fortunately for me this is France and common sense applies! It ain't going nowhere however many 15 stone guys you line up on it. I tend to over engineer anything I do but I must admit I did base the design on another balcony nearby that has been up for 10 years or more with absolutely no problems. The span between frames on the other is around 3 metres but mine averages 2 metres 30cms and the sections are the same so obviously far stronger. Having said all that like I said above you could probably do away with the frames altogether in a test situation and still be rock solid. In fact I have seen balconies built just like that. Wouldn't rely on it myself but there you go. Incidentally I visited the UK in April and couldn't believe how ridiculous things are nowadays. Speed cameras on every corner,all those variable speed zones on the motorways, cctv, parking wardens crawling all over the place and everywhere you go someone is trying to fleece you! Parking charges everywhere. Visited a place in Cornwall 1. parking charge .2 entry charge .3 Another charge to go in and have the right to buy some plants for sale! Sorry but you've just got me started! Then you got all the health and safety....talk about a nanny state or police state which is it? OK rant over [big grin]. All the same I appreciate your comments guys. Guess you just have to be confident with your jobs and if calcs do it for you then fair enough.
Nigel said:
Hi Nigel, I don't think anyone's not being calm. I appreciate it's hard to have one's work criticised, but I assure you it's not out of any spite or any other misplaced reasons. We're just a combination of curious and concerned about a few aspects.
Can I ask is the top beam mechanically fixed in any way other than being cemented into the holes in the wall? Also is the cement in direct contact with the wood and is there any form of anchor like a bolt going through the wood to form a "T" shape? I'm just wondering about shrinkage and the beams possibly coming a little loose. Finally is it your house or a clients?
As I've said it's lovely work, and you should rightly be proud of it, however with the best will in the world there do seem to be a few (IMHO) areas of concern, that have been highlighted and could be rectified now they've been raised if you wanted to.
I hope you can appreciate any comments are only intended in a constructive manner.
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