Festool Live is DEAD.

[cbcaldwe]

Ya...it's a dismissive statement on several levels. Let's just replace the words DIY crowd with female crowd and see how that works out.

Comparing saying DIY to saying FEMALE is simply wrong, and incorrect. Pro and DIY are the same thing as Pro and Hobbyist, or Pro and Amateur. DIY is in no way an insult or a form a misogyny.

Or how about the guy who earlier said Hispanic people don’t buy Festool because they don’t do quality work? That is straight up RACIST but it is still posted and not a single one of you called him out for it.

DIY just means amateur. Seems like the hobbyists need to chill out.

 

[mino]

..
DIY guys telling me how to use tools they have used, at best, 3 or 4 times, versus someone like Sedge or Greg, is ridiculous, and below Festool.
..

You have no clue. Like literally none whatsoever what you are talking about.

I could have designed the tools you are so proud of, had life not gone the other way. I wonder how much you know about fluid dynamics or crystalline structures of metals or the properties of modern polymers and composites and how to make them. Or how much you know about ergonomics psychology, about communication strategies, executive communication. The list goes on.

Just leave it. We have no need for the arrogant jerking off here. There are people with far bigger real life credentials than you could even imagine, yet none act as entitled as you just did.

---

Comparing saying DIY to saying FEMALE is simply wrong, and incorrect. Pro and DIY are the same thing as Pro and Hobbyist, or Pro and Amateur. DIY is in no way an insult or a form a misogyny.

Or how about the guy who earlier said Hispanic people don’t buy Festool because they don’t do quality work? That is straight up RACIST but it is still posted and not a single one of you called him out for it.
...

Second. Not only you have no clue about the technology in question, you also have a very limited comprehension about social concepts and references in language. You literarily did not comprehend the posts you reference. There is no point arguing with your flaky strawmen thus.

---
We have no need for your virtue signalling after the demeaning and disrespectful conduct prior. Just leave it.
You are embarrassing the actual trades people who frequent here.

/mods: Sorry, I do seek to avoid personal stuff here but this was just too much.

 

[cbcaldwe]

You have no clue. Like literally none whatsoever what you are talking about.

I could have designed the tools you are so proud of, had life not gone the other way. I wonder how much you know about fluid dynamics or crystalline structures of metals or the properties of modern polymers and composites and how to make them.

Just leave, we have no need for arrogant jerks on this forum. Moderators may permit one of of my indulgences.

Dude- what are you talking about?

I was specifically saying Jason Bent is a terrible spokesman for Festool because he has used his tools maybe 3 times and has no clue what is going on in the real world.

Why are you taking this so personally? Why are you attacking me personally? Again- reread my post. I SPECIFICALLY am talking about Jason Bent being a spokesman for Festool.

I am glad you are successful. I am glad you are an engineer making lots of money. I hope you buy a million dollars of Festool, and Felder, and have your own 5x9 CNC. This is no reason to attack me.

This is, very clearly, what I am stating. Festool is a company that can make a lot more money marketing to professionals than amateurs, because professionals have more money to spend because it essential to their work, not an enhancement to their hobby.

Anyone who is arrogant enough to attack someone first, then completely misconstrue their words, THEN call them arrogant and ask them to leave the forum is completely out of line.

Sorry my opinion is different than yours!

I would encourage you to reread your original posts before asking someone to leave because they dared respond to you. Forums are meant for discussions.

 

[cbcaldwe]

You have no clue. Like literally none whatsoever what you are talking about.

I could have designed the tools you are so proud of, had life not gone the other way. I wonder how much you know about fluid dynamics or crystalline structures of metals or the properties of modern polymers and composites and how to make them. Or how much you know about ergonomics psychology, about communication strategies, executive communication. The list goes on.

Just leave it. We have no need for the arrogant jerking off here. There are people with far bigger real live credentials than you could even imagine, yet none act as entitled as you just did.

---

Second. Not only you have no clue about the technology in question, you also have a very limited comprehension about social concepts and references in language. You literarily did not comprehend the posts you reference. There is no point arguing with your flaky strawmen thus.

---
We have no need for your virtue signalling after the demeaning and disrespectful conduct prior. Just leave it.
You are an embarrassing the actual trades people who frequent here.

/mods: Sorry, I do seek to avoid personal stuff here but this was just too much.

Literally, nothing you said after your edit makes any sense. You should really, really reread your original posts. Please end the personal attacks.

Is this Jason Bent?

 

[peter halle]

Would it be much to ask politely that the normal civility of the forum return to this thread. The personal attacks as well as the attacks on diy'ers, genders are just not what we accept as the expected norm, and while they may make one feel better for a while, they can be repulsive to many others who come here for advice and escape from the world around us.

Thank you in advance for your expected cooperation.

P.Halle - Moderator

 

[mino]

@cbcaldwe

your 1st post on this forum:

.. Marketing to the DIY crowd just sort of takes away what makes Festool special. ...

You introduce yourself by an emotional post with capitals all over, demeaning the 'DYI crowd' which constitutes the majority of this forum.
And I am letting go that even the term itself is used as an insult here.

---

your 2nd post, after I have politely notified you that you are off on your assessment of the "DYI crowd", whatever that term means

The DIY crowd shops at Lowe’s. They want a saw that is 100 bucks as opposed to 600 because they don’t use it day in, day out for a living. I am well aware of what DIY is, just saying there are more suitable tools for people who want to repair boards on their deck.
..

You continue the demeaning tone, completely disregarding what I wrote. /an insult on itself, while we are at it/

---

your 3rd post, after I took the effort on trying to explain to YOU some dynamics that seemed to escape

... For the majority of DIY customers, price is the ONLY consideration.

It seems like you may be a hobbyist that is angered that I am suggesting Festool focus on its core constintency, which is the high end finish carpenter. Strange...

You double-down, directly contradicting my /polite/ indirect notification that you are off the rails. To make your point adequate, you double down by a personal attack.

I am old enough and have seen enough to have folks talking like this for breakfast F2F, so it does not bother me that much. To be frank. Thus I -still- do not react directly, though another member did take notice.

---

Then in your 4th and 5th post you went on a tirade ..

I have no idea what triggered you here, or what is the game, so at this point I am dropping it.


@peter halle
Apologies, I had the post already drafted and yours was too concise anyway. The new inline editing xenforo uses is a PITA for multiple-post replies.
ADD: Feel at liberty to delete this and my previous post as/if applicable to clean up the thread.

 

[cbcaldwe]

Would it be much to ask politely that the normal civility of the forum return to this thread. The personal attacks as well as the attacks on diy'ers, genders are just not what we accept as the expected norm, and while they may make one feel better for a while, they can be repulsive to many others who come here for advice and escape from the world around us.

Thank you in advance for your expected cooperation.

P.Halle - Moderator

Amen!

 

[luvmytoolz]

I don't know if the DIY market in other countries is the same as here in Oz, I kinda suspect it is however.

Non-tradies or professionals that would classify as DIY'ers here in general, absolutely do not buy purely on cost, they help drive the tool market as they represent a massive customer segment, and probably outspend a lot of shops when it comes to power tools sales.

DIY'ers here often do the occasional commercial and residential work as well as generate additional income streams producing saleable items, and a large proportion of them well appreciate the benefit of quality tools.

What we call the "weekend warrior" (and this is not meant as a derogatory term) is probably more akin to what has been termed as DIY above, these are the people who may use a circular saw once every few years on some deck work, who will buy the hardware brand tools, and would likely never be a Festool or Mafell customer.

So certainly in Oz, marketing to the DIY crowd is not only a good idea, but makes sense as it acknowledges a massive customer segment. The building supply chain Bunnings explicitly targeted DIY'ers and it has made them a huge chain commanding a high level of customer loyalty, so much so that when a competing chain called Masters opened, it suffered a dismal existence before calling it quits and closing the entire chain down.

 

[Mini Me]

This is an ongoing discussion and was recently discussed here about a week ago. What some won't accept is that there are companies in this world who want nothing to do with selling to the DYI market (Wurth is one) and Festool has tried to tread the middle ground with a foot in both camps. Certainly in Oz I feel they would gladly abandon the retail side of their operation if they could as it is constantly criticised on social media for the usual price issues and their retail market share is pathetic compared to the rest of the main brands.

All major brands push hard to sell to the trade users but Festool's efforts reflect their corporate attitude which is trade comes first and retail gets lip service. In Oz the best example of this is to walk into any tool supplier and see how much store space is allocated to each brand and inevitably Festool is stuck into a small corner if it is there at all.

 

[luvmytoolz]

All major brands push hard to sell to the trade users but Festool's efforts reflect their corporate attitude which is trade comes first and retail gets lip service. In Oz the best example of this is to walk into any tool supplier and see how much store space is allocated to each brand and inevitably Festool is stuck into a small corner if it is there at all.

Generally very true for most retailers here, although Carbatec does have a somewhat small but usually decent range, but feast your eyes on the sheer gloriousness that is The Tool House in Dandy!

These guys really know and push Festool gear, and the pics I took last week are probably about a 1/3rd to 1/2 of the tools on display.

 

[mino]

This is an ongoing discussion and was recently discussed here about a week ago. What some won't accept is that there are companies in this world who want nothing to do with selling to the DYI market (Wurth is one) and Festool has tried to tread the middle ground with a foot in both camps. Certainly in Oz I feel they would gladly abandon the retail side of their operation if they could as it is constantly criticised on social media for the usual price issues and their retail market share is pathetic compared to the rest of the main brands.

All major brands push hard to sell to the trade users but Festool's efforts reflect their corporate attitude which is trade comes first and retail gets lip service. In Oz the best example of this is to walk into any tool supplier and see how much store space is allocated to each brand and inevitably Festool is stuck into a small corner if it is there at all.

Well, in the EU their retail presence was effectively made illegal by the "no fixed prices" ruling. So not /that/ surprising they would pay 'lip service' as compared to 20 yrs ago.

That said, the discussion /bar one poster/ is not about the hobby/professional 'divide' .. oh how I hate the "DIY" Americanism. .. as if of doing something (yourself) was in any way special. It. Is. Not.
In Czech Republic, and many other places, a man is expected to handle casual home maintenance. And let me tell you that the first tool you want to buy for that is the TPC. Like, literally, the first tool one should get when 18 yo or sooner. Not because it is best. But because it is so versatile is the THE best value and the best enabler over pretty much anything else there is /alongside its FEIN brother/.

--
IMO the discussion is about the "well versed customer who knows the (Fes)tool inside out" and the "new customer who has no idea what that (Fes)tool offers". That divide goes across.
Go to the random construction site and show folks the TPC and they would scoff at it. The same with the HK 85, etc. Not to mention the DOMINO XL which is an excellent asset for door and frame construction. Etc. They would scoff because they cannot imagine what they could do with these and how.

True, in Germany, almost every carpenter *knows* the Festool range inside out. For those folks extensive content is /correctly/ seen as pointless. But outside Germany, this is far, far from the case.
IMO that is the divide we see/talk here. Not the pro/non-pro banter which is meaningless in the time of etail sales dominating anyway.

 

[onocoffee]

LOL.


My point is that instead of hiring Jason Bent, who was a DIY guy, they should hire more Sedges or Greg Paolini’s, who are actually pros.

DIY guys telling me how to use tools they have used, at best, 3 or 4 times, versus someone like Sedge or Greg, is ridiculous, and below Festool.

Instead of using names like “Jason Bent” I felt like using DIY influencer was better. Apparently that is some sort of “pejorative”. Which is insane. Reading back these posts, there are all sorts of posters who have called out Festool’s DIY marketing the past few years and yet NO ONE commented on it.

Interesting, to say the least.

What you say here isn't what you wrote at the outset: "Marketing to the DIY crowd just sort of takes away what makes Festool special".

If the point was to point out Jason Bent then you should have started out that way. People here know who he is.

Dude- what are you talking about?

I was specifically saying Jason Bent is a terrible spokesman for Festool because he has used his tools maybe 3 times and has no clue what is going on in the real world.

Why are you taking this so personally? Why are you attacking me personally? Again- reread my post. I SPECIFICALLY am talking about Jason Bent being a spokesman for Festool.

I am glad you are successful. I am glad you are an engineer making lots of money. I hope you buy a million dollars of Festool, and Felder, and have your own 5x9 CNC. This is no reason to attack me.

This is, very clearly, what I am stating. Festool is a company that can make a lot more money marketing to professionals than amateurs, because professionals have more money to spend because it essential to their work, not an enhancement to their hobby.

Anyone who is arrogant enough to attack someone first, then completely misconstrue their words, THEN call them arrogant and ask them to leave the forum is completely out of line.

Sorry my opinion is different than yours!

I would encourage you to reread your original posts before asking someone to leave because they dared respond to you. Forums are meant for discussions.

Suddenly, it's all about Jason Bent? As though you didn't pen everything else...

As Mino said, there are quite a number of accomplished woodworkers and tradesmen here. You started off on the wrong foot. Admit it and move one. People here won't hold it against you.

 

[Cheese]

Except maybe for me.,..

 

[Crispy]

Generally very true for most retailers here, although Carbatec does have a somewhat small but usually decent range, but feast your eyes on the sheer gloriousness that is The Tool House in Dandy!

These guys really know and push Festool gear, and the pics I took last week are probably about a 1/3rd to 1/2 of the tools on display.

I wish there was a display like that up here.
I'd be lucky if the aisle displays are more than 5m long witha 10th of that amount of stock.

And just quietly in regards to DIY stuff above etc, i am a multi trades person too- ex panel beater, and currently electrician and data bee arch.
I have spent prenty prenty on festool and other wood related items over the last 6+ years - much more than i thought i had.
But as per audio equipment, tools - ie snapon etc, have pretty much always purchased on the higher end of the scale much to my wifes annoyance, until the worth has been proven.

People will buy whatever they see value in, sometimes that may be a cheap chinese item for a single once off job, other times what ever they can afford.
As per earlier posts i used festool friday to learn how to use the things i had purchased ( yes the 3 stooges thing annoyed me) but Sedge made it easy to follow and understand.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I wish there was a display like that up here.
I'd be lucky if the aisle displays are more than 5m long witha 10th of that amount of stock.

I was pretty shocked when I saw the store the first time, I've been buying from Total Tools or Sydney's Tools mostly but the items generally always needed to be ordered in.

The Tool House however has a massive amount of stock and display of all the ranges including the bigs saws.

But I was blown away when chatting with the young bloke who was very familiar with the SR5E extractor, and the model it was originally based off. This is an extractor circa ~1982!

Pure joy dealing with a place that had such switched on sales staff for a change.

 

[onocoffee]

I was pretty shocked when I saw the store the first time, I've been buying from Total Tools or Sydney's Tools mostly but the items generally always needed to be ordered in.

The Tool House however has a massive amount of stock and display of all the ranges including the bigs saws.

But I was blown away when chatting with the young bloke who was very familiar with the SR5E extractor, and the model it was originally based off. This is an extractor circa ~1982!

Pure joy dealing with a place that had such switched on sales staff for a change.

I had a similar experience last week when I went to visit Hartville Hardware in Ohio. Incredibly massive hardware store - so much so that there's an 1800sf house built in the middle of the store that you can't really see when standing at the entrance.

Then there was the tool aisles. Mass quantities of DeWalt and Milwaukee, as well as Festool. Made me wonder what it would be like if that were my local hardware store.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I had a similar experience last week when I went to visit Hartville Hardware in Ohio. Incredibly massive hardware store - so much so that there's an 1800sf house built in the middle of the store that you can't really see when standing at the entrance.

Then there was the tool aisles. Mass quantities of DeWalt and Milwaukee, as well as Festool. Made me wonder what it would be like if that were my local hardware store.

Makes you feel like dancing through the entrance to the melodious sounds of Willy Wonka's "Pure Imagination". ;-)

Unless it's a really common product, a lot of the suppliers here have to order in for anything that's even the barest of unusual. Really annoying and chews up warranty time as you generally have to pay in full first.

So rare to be able to walk (or dance) into a supplier and buy one of the several Festool eccentric chucks in stock straight off the shelf as I did the other week!