Hammer A3-31 vs. Minimax FS30 Classic

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RKA

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I'm looking at one of these two machines and I have a question about which of the cutter head options for the hammer is more comparable to the Tersa on the Minimax.  Are the straight knives easy to change on the A3?  Is the finish quality comparable?  If the answer to both is yes, it would appear the Hammer has quite a lead in terms of price.  From what I can tell, both are otherwise very good, if not overkill for a hobby shop.  It appears the differences are in ergonomics and usability.

Is there anything else I'm missing in my comparison below?  Unfortunately I can't use both prior to making a decision, so I have to rely on those who have or those who did the paper comparison prior to purchase.

Hammer A3-31
$3224 (straight blade)
$300 shipping
$148 handwheel + digital display
$257 tax
$3929 total
*need to buy or build a mobile base that steers on the short side

Minimax FS30 Classic
$4246 (Tersa head)
$200 euro guard to replace pork chop?
$314 shipping
? Mobile base (not sure if it's included, but it steers on the short side)
? Tax
$4760++
*need to add digital height gauge for planer
**need 30 amp service
***less time converting between J and P operations
 
Raj, out of curiosity, I have researched both and they are both great machines, I have heard the Tersa knives are easier to change than the straight knives on the Hammer.  I have also heard the Tersa is closer to the spiral in finish quality.  I do know for a fact that NJ is a state Minimax collects sales tax in.  I was about to purchase a MM20 bandsaw and the quote included tax.
 
I owned a an A3-31 with straight knives and it took no more then 10 minutes to flip or change. The cut with a straight knife machine will be the same whether Hammer or Minimax, tersa or not. I will say that the knives that come with the machine are just HSS and are lame, similar to the knives you get with a Dewalt 735, you will want to get the cobalt knives for replacement, They last 2 to 3 times longer for not much more money. Pretty easy to put a set of Zambus casters on the machine for mobility.

John
 
Raj,
I have not looked at these particular models but I have both of their comparable larger siblings.  I have a Felder AD741 and a Minimax FS41 EliteS.  The list below summarizes some of the differences between the two but they may or may not apply to the machines you are considering so, verify with the seller before making a final choice. 

Knife Systems:  The finish between the Tersa and the Felder cutterhead (both are 4 knives) is indistinguishable.  One is not any better or worse than the other.  The Felder ships with high speed steel knives.  The Minimax ships with chrome knives that will soon need replacement unless you work primarily with soft woods.  The Tersa takes about 30 seconds per knife to change.  The Felder takes about 1-1/2 minutes each.  Both are very easy to change and no adjustments are necessary on either after replacement.  I use the M42 knives for both so don't have to change them that often unless using woods high in silica.  I have no basis for comparison with the Silent Head finish.  If you work with wild grain woods such as curly or birdseye maple, expect minor chipout from both. 

Changeover time:  A very slight edge to Minimax primarily because the planer bed doesn't need to go down as far.  The difference however is negligible.  The Minimax dust port stays on the same end of the machine when converting, the Felder flips to the opposite end.  This is a bit less convenient but comes at a cost in dust collection efficiency.  Because of the design, the Minimax dust port is much more restricted than the Felder and thus has poorer (although adequate) dust collection.

Guard system:  The Minimax pork chop guard is useless and mine never worked right and frankly was downright dangerous (it would not completely close to cover the cutterhead after jointing).  The Minimax euroguard is okay but the knobs are very small (I replaced mine).  The Felder guard is stouter and of higher quality.

Be aware that Minimax lists oddball HP ratings on their motors.  They advertise higher HP ratings by 20% because of the frequency difference from 50-60Hz.  Felder does not do this and have comparable motors.  Given your location, I would suggest visiting the Felder showroom in Delaware to see and use that one first hand.

Steve

RKA said:
I'm looking at one of these two machines and I have a question about which of the cutter head options for the hammer is more comparable to the Tersa on the Minimax.  Are the straight knives easy to change on the A3?  Is the finish quality comparable?  If the answer to both is yes, it would appear the Hammer has quite a lead in terms of price.  From what I can tell, both are otherwise very good, if not overkill for a hobby shop.  It appears the differences are in ergonomics and usability.

Is there anything else I'm missing in my comparison below?  Unfortunately I can't use both prior to making a decision, so I have to rely on those who have or those who did the paper comparison prior to purchase.

Hammer A3-31
$3224 (straight blade)
$300 shipping
$148 handwheel + digital display
$257 tax
$3929 total
*need to buy or build a mobile base that steers on the short side

Minimax FS30 Classic
$4246 (Tersa head)
$200 euro guard to replace pork chop?
$314 shipping
? Mobile base (not sure if it's included, but it steers on the short side)
? Tax
$4760++
*need to add digital height gauge for planer
**need 30 amp service
***less time converting between J and P operations
Click to expand...
 
I have the Hammer A3-31 with the silent cutterhead.  No experience with the Minimax.

Because I live in a townhouse and my workshop is in the garage, the silent cutterhead was important to me.  I am very happy with the results.

Not sure if this is still the case (you should verify for yourself), is that the MM tables have to be lifted separately, and there is no spring assist like the hammer.  Also, I believe you have to take the fence off and find somewhere to put it before lifting the tables. 
 
I have had the Hammer for 10 years now and it is an awesome machine. Mine does not have the single lift tables like the new versions or the option of the silent cutter head, but the straight knives last awhile and are ground on both sides for easy changes and double life. Also, the digital hand wheel is accurate for repeat depths. I have to replace one of the start capacitors on my machine that has gone out, but that is a normal wear item and easy to replace (and pretty cheap part). Other than that, it has performed flawlessly. No experience with the Minimax.
 
Thanks guys!  Very good information!  I read through it several times last night and again this morning.  At this time it seems like the Hammer might be the cheaper option.

Steve's point about the dust collection was something I hadn't read before...that's actually a great point since I'm highly sensitive to dust (I should pick a different hobby, but let's revisit that in a year or two).  The more that can be captured at the source, the better off I am.  I'm still chewing on the spiral cutterhead, mainly for the noise reduction, but I suspect even with straight blades neither of these machines are banshees like the lunchbox planers, correct?  Are there any dB numbers out there that would put this in perspective?  Or just relative numbers (1-10) if you have experience with the spiral, straight and lunchbox planers? 

The difference in change over time with the knives sounds negligible to me.  But there are some differing statements about the quality of those knives.  I know the tersa knives aren't terribly expensive ($40 a set) and I might go through one set a year.  But the Hammer knives seem like they might be proprietary (only available through them).  Cost seems to be $35-60 which isn't terrible for something I might change every 1-2 years. 

[member=4907]kcufstoidi[/member] I assume you just build a platform for this to sit on and bolt the zambus casters to the base and not directly to the machine? 
 
Thanks [member=18283]RobBob[/member] I had forgotten about that video!  I think I saw it over a year ago while I was on a Harry binge (that's his name if I recall?).
 
Raj,
If you are worried about noise and have the dough, I would get the helical head cutter.  I have been present at Felder showroom and when planing/jointing, they are much quieter than straight knives.  Mine are 16" with straight knives and they run about 96db as measured with my phone app and they are the loudest machines I have.  I don't trust the absolute value but for comparative purposes, an 180mm diameter raised panel shaper cutter running at 4000rpm measured 94db.  I would expect 12" with straight knives to be less as I believe the noisemaker is windage.

I have my disc sander on Zambus casters and IMO, they are much easier to roll than other leveling pad casters I have used.  Avoid going on the cheap and getting Great Lakes casters, the ones I got were horrible and no longer reside in my shop - good riddance.  Woodriver casters fall in between the two on quality but the Zambus by far are the best. 

If the base is rectangular, I would seriously consider getting the Portamate PM3500.  I have tried many commercially made moble bases and this is by far the best that I have found.  I have this on an 850 lb machine and is very easy to roll about and locks down solid with foot pedals without having to bend over and put leveling pads down.

Steve
 
On the older machines I just bolted the AC300 Zambus casters right to the machine in the holes on each corner. Very stable, I'm not much for these aftermarket rolling frames. The Silentpower is a quieter option but if noise going to the outside of shop isn't an issue the straight knives are great. You still have to wear headphones with either one. If you know and understand how to plane right, the tearout problem using straight knives isn't an issue as you can still get it with the Silentpower or similar head. The Silentpower head was developed for operations with high usage not because it helps with tearout. I deal with a company that uses a Felder 24" everyday and they have done a complete change out of the carbide cutters twice in just over a year. The insert cutter have a set of issues that most don't discuss.
http://www.zambus.com/product/ac300.php

John
 
Thanks Steve!  I wish I could figure out how to tag your name in my reply.  If I type "[member=2162]Steve[/member]" the forum software only presents 10 matches in alpha order and you're not one of them.  Once I add the space, I get nothing?! 

I'm glad you mentioned the Wood River casters.  I had read they were the same as the Zambus AC300's, apparently not.  The portamate looks interesting as well and since the base is rectangular, that seems to be an option.  I had not considered that, however I certainly like the idea of not having to creep down to the floor anytime I want to move it about!  As long as there is no plastic in it, I'm game.  In any event, the deposit for the Hammer with the silent power head has been placed.  I figured I'll appreciate the silence long after I've forgotten about the $700.  Now I have a ton of logistics to work out before I can pick it up.

[member=4907]kcufstoidi[/member] The tear out issue wasn't really a concern for me.  Now what's this issue with the insert cutters that nobody speaks of?  I had heard of them cracking because they were overtorqued, and in the case of the cheaper asian copies, some scalloping in the wood due to the design.  Anything else?
 
[member=21249]RKA[/member] That's awesome Raj.  I am surprised the Silent Power is only $700 more.  Felder has been pretty aggressive with their pricing for the past year or so - probably due to the favorable exchange rate.

I have no idea why my name can't be tagged.  I can't even tag myself (feeling rejected - LOL)
 
[member=21249]RKA[/member] I'm awaiting delivery of my Hammer j/p, and I went with the silent power option after dealing with my previous planer (Dewalt 735).  It would hit 95 db on narrow stock with very light passes.  With wider stock it would exceed 100db.  Can't vouch for the accuracy of the db reading because I used an iphone SPL app, but I can tell you that at its loudest I didn't like being in the room with the Dewalt.   
 
[member=18240]Max Fracas[/member] that going to be a nice improvement!  Congrats on the new planer! 
 
I looked at the Hammer in-person at the Felder showroom in Delaware and ended up getting the MiniMax FS 41 elite. It was tough to see the A3-31 sitting next to the AD-531 as the differences in fit / finish are stark. For me, MiniMax was the clear choice as it was less expensive then the comparable Felder and certainly equal in build quality.

toPyL9E.jpg


I say this but my other shop is all Japanese-made machines [wink]
 
Yes both tables operate separately when changing over, spring assist only on the outfeed side but they both raise and lower quite easily and return to the down position precisely. The center-mount fence on the FS 41 elite just needs to be pulled all the way in, does not need to be removed. Can't speak to the FS 30 Classic that the OP is looking at but I think removal with the in feed-mounted fence system is the case.

I did run through the change over of the AD 531 and A3-31 at the Felder showroom and don't think it was any easier or felt more precise when either machine returned to jointer mode.
 
Hi,

I've never had a chance to see the A3-31 but I've had a Minimax C26, which is a combo machine with the equivalent of an FS26 jointer/planer.

What I've found is that the dust collection was pretty bad while jointing and the machine would often throw chips in my face or easily plug. The pork chop cover is easy to break and really expensive to replace (CAD$400). As a matter of fact all the parts for the machine are extremely expensive to replace. The dust collection port for the planer is made of plastic and is really easy to break if you don't move the tables down low enough when switching to jointing.

Another fact to consider is that you have two change your hose when switching between planing and jointing.

I've also found that the fence is not really rigid and will easily flex.

My whole experience with the C26 really turned me off from Minimax machines. Even changing the blade on it was difficult and in my opinion, poorly designed. Add to that the high cost of replacement parts and it's even less attractive.
 
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