How best to provide guidance from experienced to lessor experienced

[peter halle]

I have a question for all that will be at the bottom of this post.  There is a prelude:

I have been involved on a job that went bad.  I was originally called in as an experiment to make things happen.  I did what I was contracted to do and then was asked to do more.  Other contractors didn't seem to be enthused anymore and as of yesterday I am the only one on the job.

I had a meeting with the owners today and I appear to be in line for the completion of the the other work as well as future work.  When I expressed my concern that my charges might exceed their budget they told me that they had analyzed my higher charges and that actually I worked out less expensive because I was more efficient.

Now let's add into the reason for my question to come;  I am about to start my 10th year as a Moderator and have always fought to make this community a knowledge based arena for all.  Once the economy started to rebound years ago we have lost participation from so many that have real advice to provide.  I suspect that many have not continued due to work requirements, general disinterest, or general disinterest in the advice they have honestly offered.

So my question is:  How do we encourage others with so much experience to share to get re-involved and then keep them involved?  How do we create and keep some threads more on topic so that information can be more easily accessed? There must be a way rather than just thru Moderation.  Is this just a pipe dream for me?

I don't want to hear why specific members aren't involved anymore - I want suggestions.

All constructive comments welcomed.

Peter Halle - Moderator

 

[Alanbach]

Am I reading between the lines correctly that you know who some of those people are (from past experience)? If so, would it be possible for you to attempt to contact them directly? If so, then their input (as in answering your question) would be invaluable. After that, maybe the rest of us can help with whatever requests you receive from them to help make this a better forum.

I have a question about your post. What did you mean when you said “allow them to post with total pollution in their threads”?

Also, could you expand on the specific concerns/areas for improvement that you see. I have only been around for approximately a year so I don’t have a lot to compare my recent experiences to. What I have experienced is that questions are usually answered very capably.

 

[James Carriere]

Hi Peter,

Just thinking out loud here about your intriguing question.... Regardless of the craft there are always those who are willing and would like to give back to the community as they feel they have been successful and have had good fortune in their career.  Identifying those members who were once active and have this wanting to give back tendency is the key.  One possible angle might be to consider the #keepcraftalive moment started last year by Fine Homebuilding.  The issue of diminishing numbers of youth choosing the trades for a career is real. It seems to me that the movement is getting some good traction and perhaps
Festool might be interested in partnering with the program as a sponsor?  If you are able to assemble a list of former or inactive members whom you consider qualified to fit the "highly experienced" requirements you have in mind, maybe they could be contacted directly and invited to be participate in a Festool online mentorship program?  It could easily be established and if it becomes popular maybe Festool could sponsor some regional seminars and the mentors would be willing to do a few hands on local demos?  Initially I think if those you are interested in were approached with the concept that the community needs them and their experience you would find a percentage that would enjoy participating.

 

[peter halle]

Sorry for a typo and poor wording in my opening post.  I have edited it and hopefully it will read better.

Peter

 

[Stone Message]

Hi Peter

This is a subject dear to my heart because I came to the FOG for help and guidance in early 2011. I wanted to find out more about Festool tools before spending the proceeds of the sale of my bigger machine tools. I really did get the advice that I sought and have not looked back.

I am not and have never been a professional woodworker but I served an apprenticeship of sorts under my father and have done my best to learn from others. Included in the latter group are many of the regulars, past and present, here on the FOG. Despite my non professional status I have the confidence to give advice within my comfort zone.

However, I get very upset when anyone tries to make a point about the superiority of those employed full time in the trade and those like me who are on the side lines. The enthusiastic amateurs get turned off by this yet they have, in so many ways, so much to offer. They may be absolute experts in a very narrow area and have a lot to offer to even the most experience professional. So, my point here is that everyone on the FOG should be considered as equals and respect works both ways. The other side of this is that there are some highly accomplished professionals who are members of the FOG and their advice is amazing as they cover not only the detailed woodworking aspect but also the practical aspects and time/cost considerations.

The next "turn off" is something that I am guilty of time and again and that is starting a new thread about a question or subject that has been covered ad nauseum many times before - try guide rail length or which Domino/sander/abrasive/extractor. Now I accept that an individual with that question may have some unique circumstance which is why he or she wants to re-open the debate (best length of a guide rail for underwater use or which sander for doing the inside of a men's locker room) however these recurring themes do get a bit boring after a while.

Whatever happens, please do not change the style or quality of the moderator work. I have seen many other forums (the spell checker did not like fora)  where debates have turned nasty and just left to spiral down into the depths of common decency.

Peter

 

[peter halle]

This forum is the greatest resource of knowledge from users of Festool products all around the globe gathered together in one place.  You can get questions answered, you can give and get advice, and it doesn’t matter if you are a professional, a non- professional, or even if you actually have ever used a Festool product.

Every tool user discovers something unique that works out well for their situation.  But because woodworking is often times a solitary experience what has been learned doesn’t get passed on to others.  How do we get those tidbits and experiences out in the open?  And keep those contributors engaged?

If you have ever get the pleasure to be in a room full of Festool users you will experience one of the greatest pleasures.  The information that naturally flows and the entusiasm is infectious.  And then you will leave saying to yourself “I wish I could have had more time with xxxxxx and could have picked his / her brain some more. I wish we could do this more often.”  How do we get xxxxx to share more and more often?

Note:  For those planning to attend the upcoming Festool Connect Event, if you can spend time with Members before or after the event then you will experience this.

The Festool trainers often say that we as tool users only utilize a percentage of out tool capabilities.  How do we get those who have spent 1 hour or 10,000 hours to share the unique ways that they use theirs? 

Peter

 

[RDMuller]

It is great that you are raising these questions.  While the number of posts may be down, the quality of information is still very good so don't feel let down.  What's wrong?  Speaking for myself, the NOVELTY HAS WORN OFF as I became more and more familiar with my Festools.  Also I realize that making videos takes an enormous amount of time.  The NOVELTY OF MAKING VIDEOS WORE OFF.

I gained an enormous amount of self-satisfaction from making a few videos.  Eight years ago I produced a series of 3 videos on the track saws.  Correct me if I am wrong Peter, but I believe you have credited me with being the inventor of the torsion box table for breaking up plywood sheets.  Look at where that has gone with all of the modifications of that  which have been posted over the years!  The first video in that series was named the woodworking training video of the year in competition which was sponsored by what was then Cabinetmaker/FDMC magazine.  One of the videos on the parallel guides and extensions now has 231,000 hits. 

ALL OF THES THINGS MAKE ME FEEL GREAT ---but the novelty has worn off!  Hence the lack of producing things to post here -- even though it would be easier than with technolgy  like the iPhone 10.  I made a whole video on my flower gardens and edited it on the phone while watching TV.  I used to shoot on professional cameras and editing stations.  They lie idle!

I have many very serious hobbies/avocations -- woodworking, photography, videography, computer programming, flower gardening and landscaping.  NONE of the these have forums/user groups that I find useful enough to check on a routine basis -- except for the FOG.  I check daily!  Where else would I go to ask about new spray guns, pinners, finishes and Festool?

Should we have a live session like WWGOA?  I don't think so.  Too much work and to many weak questions coming in -- what's the difference between rip blades and crosscut?  Etc. 

Facebook and other social media -- disorganized mess!  I always wasted too much time trying work through well organized conent to find something useful.

In summary I think we are in a pretty good position and should not judge by numbers alone.  Thank you to. Peter and Seth for the good job moderating.  ( And by the way I am not going to run away and join the circus like Half-Inch Shy!)

 

[Stephen B]

Some thoughts -
Like RDMiller am finding my apreciation of the FOG no longer provides the buzz it once did. My posting has reduced considerably.

In the past twelve months there has been a distinct lacking in international member participation. Consequently the FOG has become more US centric. Sure most members live in NA, but often materials and methods are different country to country and international discussion enriches us all. Sadly this has been further compounded by the illness of Phill the UK moderator. Whilst Peter and Seth do a sterling job here, their workload could be assisted by more moderators - including international.

There is also a trend for employers to restrict employee participation in social media. My employer for the past four years certainly placed restrictions on social media use. I was selling tools at a retail level, and these were not Festool; so I reduced my FOG participation.

Like Peter Parfett I also find the high level of repetition tedious. I truely wonder why some posters do not use the search function?  But hey, neither did I once.  [embarassed]  Maybe the search function could be highlighted. Perhaps experienced FOG members could provide links to past posts when replying.

Eg.http://festoolownersgroup.com/forum...rship-numbers-on-the-fog/msg490708/#msg490708

And yes, professional  and amateur posts too have been discussed before. I stand with Peter Parfett; we can all learn and the FOG can help us in moving beyond our comfort zone.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/home-improvement-other-projects/'quick-and-dirty'-basement-door-repair/msg555936/#msg555936

And returning to myself, if you read 'One for the Aussies';  yes I am just a little peaved with FESTOOL Australia's operations down here.  This certainly taints the experience. Are there less Aussies here now? As for Festool's products, none of mine are for sale.  [smile]

I am sorry Peter you did ask for positive responses but within my winge there were three suggestions.

 

[peter halle]

[member=19746]Untidy Shop[/member]

No problems Mate!

Thank you to all who have responded so far and I hope to read more responses.

Peter

 

[HarveyWildes]

I'm primarily a woodworker, but I've done a lot of remodeling and basements over the years and served as the general contractor on my current house.  I've done framing, siding, tiling, sheetrock, architectural woodwork, electrical (under supervision) and plumbing for starters, so while I'm not a professional at any of those things, I'm familiar with basic tools for a variety of jobs.

The best woodworking learning experience I had was taking classes (and I took quite a few) at Red Rocks Community College in Denver.  There were several reasons why it was the best, and I think that FOG approximates at least a couple of them.

First, an admission that book study and lecture time are way down on the list.  Fortunately, the instructors realized this and spent very little time on it - except for the very beginner class, usually only as much time as it took to introduce specific tools and cover the safety aspects of using them.

So here are three things that I valued the most from those classes:

3.  I was introduced to a variety of tools and methods, and I was able to choose the ones that worked the best for me.  If someone preaches about this or that tool or technique being the best, I ignore the preachy aspect and just try to absorb what they are saying, but ultimately I will choose tools and techniques based on what works well for me.  FOG has a lot to offer in this regard.
- I started with Festool because I think the Domino (500 in my case) is brilliant.  I started using it with a Fein extractor.
- I bought a Festool dust extractor because my Fein wasn't tool actuated.  I soon realized that it was better than my Fein at collecting dust from the Domino.
- So next, I bought a 6" ECS EQ.  It was head and shoulders above my previous DeWalt/Fein combination in terms of dust and performance.
- And I was hooked.  However, from the second purchase on, I've always consulted FOG to see why I should buy the tool.  The information from FOG has informed every purchase, how to use effectively, accessories, and so on.
- Personally, I don't post much on Festool tools.  Others have more knowledge than I do, but occasionally if I think I have something specific to offer, I'll do it.

2. The projects at Red Rocks were designed to stretch my skills.  There was no idea of learning one single skill with each new project.  They would try to cram in five or ten or twenty new skills with each one.  It is difficult for me to pick projects myself that provide that kind of challenge, even now that I have a lot more experience.  I don't know that FOG can help much with this one.

1. The best part of the classes was that all of instructors were active professionals, or in the case of the few full time instructors, had previous professional experience.  In the project room, these guys would come around and intentionally "provoke" conversations about the possible ways to do something on the project, and then they would debate the pluses and minuses of each technique.  Sometimes three or four of them would get together and debate different ways to get a certain job done.  It soon became clear that for many tasks, there was no one "right" way, but there were several good ways, depending on what skills you chose to develop and what tools you preferred to use.  I love the project-oriented posts in FOG just for this reason.  They give me insight into what is possible.  I think of [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member] for breadth of Festool experience, and [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] for hand tool knowledge.  Thanks for the videos, Peter, and Derek - the apothecary cabinet posting was brilliant!  But you don't have to be Peter or Derek to teach me something .

Maybe in a few months after I retire, I'll spend more time documenting and posting my projects, and try to do a better job of giving back to those of you who have helped me since I discovered FOG.

 

[Bob D.]

"...a room full of Festool users..."

Are you implying that a room full of non-Festool users are unknowing or unwilling to share their experience?

Mentoring and sharing of methods and techniques was happening long before Festool existed, no disrespect
intended. That may not have been what you meant but it's how it appeared to me as I read your post.

Maybe the FOG doesn't have the depth of experience you seek here any longer because of the Festool is best, forget the rest attitude.

I am retired but worked for 40 years in the building trades, not as a carpenter or cabinetmaker but a skilled trade non the less.

Skill, no matter what trade it is, rests in the mind and hands of the worker, it's not in the tool held in the hands of the worker.

 

[peter halle]

[member=60461]Bob D.[/member] , that was not what was meant.  This happens to be a Festool forum and in all honesty I haven’t been in a room of woodworkers who don’t use Festool products in a very long time so I wrote what I have observed personally.  I am sure that a group of woodworkers together could be exciting as well.

Peter

 

[Stone Message]

[member=60461]Bob D.[/member] Peter did not mean what you have said and I think that is clear from the words that he has used. Over here in the UK Ron ( [member=10147]jobsworth[/member] ) used to host Festool get togethers for anyone that could make it to his house when he lived over here. I was never able to get to one of his gatherings but it was clear that they were good fun and every enjoyed getting together in the context of Festool ownership.

On Bob's side, it is right that almost any gathering of woodworkers is going to be fun.

Peter

 

[sancho57]

I edited m response a couple of times. At first I wrote as to WHY people left the forum

I re read Peters question and its "How to get people to participate more."

As RD/w Others and I share the same opinion that well the thrill is gone, Festool is everywhere, especially on YouTube. All the info one would need is there. So people can go there and find what ever info they need. Also many manufacturers are making Festoolesque products good dust collection now and people are choosing to go with them.

So my suggestions to increase participation:

I think there should be a FAQ section here or a easier way to search.
To eliminate the repetitive questions such as which router to buy or what FT do I need to build a xxx questions.

The search function is hard (to me) to negociate so I can see why people rather ask a question then use the search function.

So a FAQ folder would be a good idea sub folders in the FAQ folder would be helpful broken down to MFTs, Routers, Sanders etc. Slow down the beginning questions. Honestly they are getting boring.

Members encouraging those who post tips, techniques, jigs is a good thing.

Even if its a basic easy beginning level not heirloom type project a comment such as its a nice job or good idea, it makes the poster feel part of the group. Eveyone here is at a different level and has a different focus of their wood working.
It is nice to be nice.

To be honest I have posted things and got a lot of views but thats it. But no comments or few comments. It discouraged me from posting my work.

FT dealers should be involved a lot more. The dealers here just come announce some event or product and go.

Thats about the length of their participation.

I understand we cant force a dealer to participate here.
But it is nice to have them here and participating. Alway positive to show support from dealers to the users.

Bob and Shane and Tom B used to come quite a lot , Tom B (RIP) was awesome.

Tom B spent a lot of time here and helped a lot of people. I do miss him. He was not only my go to dealer but after all the time we talked I considered him a friend.

I dont see much FT participation much anymore.

Festool US needs to spend some time here.

Also, It would be really nice if some FT internationals visit here. We all know Phil does from the UK but It would be nice to see FT  Australia, Canada(I dont know if Canada is part of FT USA or not) etc come here every now and then as they have a lot of festool users here from their countries. Just a stop in every now and then would be nice.

Shane was answering questions solving problems almost 24/7 here.

Phil comes when he can but he is one busy guy. Plus this IS a US site and Phil is limited to UK issues.

Add some additional folders or sub folders. There seems to a lot of questions focused around MFT, Domino, Conturo.

To encourage International Participation a folder for them would be nice. For things we dont have here, Like the various CMS modules, Presio saws etc.
When they ask now its always the same Festool doesnt support XXX here in the USA.
Yes this is a US site but we have a lot of international FOGGERs.

 

[tjbnwi]

Not sure how to respond on this or, where I fit in.

I use the tools in my profession, have for years, but still have a lot to learn.

In an average week I’ll recieve 20-25 emails asking for help with either Festool’s or finishing. At least 75% of the questions come from people who have never posted here but signed up so they can send me an email. I respond to all of them, not sure if I’ve help them, but I do respond [scared]

I do read the forum at least once a day. If I see a question or issue I can help with I will respond.

The “shine” has not worn off for me. I look at everyday as a moment in time to learn something. I can say without a doubt I have learned more here than I have helped others. Most times it’s just a couple of words lost in someones post that makes the lightbulb go off in my head.

As a few members I communicate with off the forum know, I’ve been a wee bit busy.

I’ll ask my 2 employees who are new to Festool to give me some input on what they think of the process using Festool’s and how it has made what they do better or worse.

[member=61231]HarveyWildes[/member], if you ever get down to The Springs, the shop door is open if you care to visit (the invitation is open to everyone).

Tom

 

[ElectricFeet]

I second [member=10147]jobsworth[/member] 's comments that YouTube has killed a lot of the "how to" side of fora.

A lot of the knowledge that people are looking for is now "out there" and no longer locked up in people's heads. Videos are great for picking up tiny details you didn't know you'd need -- the modern equivalent of an apprenticeship. Watching them at 2x is fantastic for picking up the basics.

A lot of the knowledge that people don't realise they need is still inside other people's heads -- but if you don't know you need that knowledge, you'll never ask for it on a forum.

On a technical note, and as a new user: After several months of using this forum, I only today figured out how strangely the "unread" button works. I had assumed that this button showed me all the posts I hadn't read, and was always a bit confused that I would see a different list on my iPad to the one I saw on my desktop. I delete cookies regularly, so login frequently. Today I found out that this button actually only shows all the unread posts since my last login.

So I thought I was looking at a site with relatively little activity: always 10-12 posts that had been updated since I last looked; no big deal. Whereas today I discovered how to use http://festoolownersgroup.com/unread/?all;start=0 to get all my unread posts and there are (in my case) 25 pages of them! A much busier site than I thought!

I can't understand why anyone would want only to see unread topics since last login. I want to see all the unread topics. If I want to "clear" the list, I have the "Mark all as read" button. In a world where we login briefly from different devices -- 5 minutes in the dentist waiting room; 10 minutes on the sofa, 30 minutes at the desktop -- it makes no sense to wipe the list on each login: you look at a couple of posts and then the list gets wiped.

So maybe some people don't participate because they don't realise that there's something to participate in?

 

[JFelchlin]

As of 1:12pm today - Of the 21 posts - 8 were Sales & Dealer posts - 38%!
While these advertisements are important - Many are simply “repeats” by competitive dealers. They “clog up” the Recent Posts area of the FOG -
Adding no value to “provide guidance from experienced to lessor experienced” woodworkers - Or promote postings, therein, by woodworking members.
I understand these posts do have their own value - Letting us know “what’s new - what’s being promoted”.
But, if I want to see ‘em - I can go to the Sales & Dealer tab. Strip ‘em out of Recent Posts.

Another Thought:
While I’d love to go to CONNECT - And meet/hang out with other Festoolians -
It’s 800+ miles away from me. A little too far for a 6 hour event - Even with an evening opportunity to hook up with other FOGers for a few hours.
Notwithstanding Woodcraft/Rockler local groups (which are “generic”) -
To promote FESTOOLIANs connecting “locally” -
Under the FOGs MEMBERS tab - SEARCH FOR MEMBERS tab - Add “radio buttons” for CITY and STATE.
For those that want to provide this CITY/STATE info - It’d provide more “local” opportunities to meet and share experience/knowledge.
Other forums do this in different ways... And members of these “local” groups post on their forums regularly - Sharing tips and info.

Lastly... I’ve gained a LOT of knowledge/information from reading the FOG.
And early on - I posted more often on the FOG - Adding praise, encouragement, information, or a recommendation for a tool. I’ve stopped for the most part.
I love my Festool products - Use ‘em often - And wouldn’t sell ‘em.
But... I’m not a “purist”. No brand of products is perfect - Including Festool.
When I (and reading the FOG - others, as well) questioned an imperfection/problem with a Festool product - Looking for a solution (Peter read that: “others’ experience”) - I was met with rebukes/criticism - From Festool “can do nothing wrong loyalists”.
Telling someone who’s invested $1,000+ in a tool: “If you’re unhappy with your Festool’s - Sell ‘em” - Doesn’t invite future requests (posts) for help from those with experience.

An Acknowledgment:
Mr. Parfitt - You may never understand or know - How many Festool owners/users you’ve taught and encouraged. I’m one of them.
THANK YOU! for continuing to continue.

 

[Gregor]

As of 1:12pm today - Of the 21 posts - 8 were Sales & Dealer posts - 38%!
While these advertisements are important - Many are simply “repeats” by competitive dealers. They “clog up” the Recent Posts area of the FOG -
Adding no value to the transfer of “experience” - Or promote postings by woodworking members.
I understand these posts do have their own value - Letting us know “what’s new - what’s being promoted”.
But, if I want to see ‘em - I can go to the Sales & Dealer tab. Strip em out of Recent Posts.

A configuration option to cull certain subforums (from unread or completely) would be appreciated.

I for example am (in addition to the regular '100$ off', 'win stuff' and whatnot from the dealer area) utterly uninterested in the classifieds - for one simple reason: I'm not based in the US (thus not eligble for raffles and giveaways anyway) and the tools in the dealers and classified sections (apart from have no use for 110V stuff) are uninteresting because shipping costs would likely be higher than buying NIB here.

I also hate video tutorials, stemming from video being a linear medium that can't be reasonably searched for keywords.

Apart from that, the rest let's me learn a lot and I try to be helpful to others as that makes me happy.

Finally I think that, as this forum can well be viewed as a free (for festool, from the forum being mainly user driven) advertising/support channel, issues like with the Kapex burnouts might have lead quite some people to think again about 'working' (in the sense of providing content and unpaid customer support) for a company that lets their customers down the same way as all the others companies do... Might explain a noticed reduction in participation.

 

[sancho57]

Another issue I find is all the negativity by new users with very limited post. Sure the site is made to help others give advice etc.

But when people with 1 or 2 post come and whine because Festool didnt react the way they think that the company should to their issue and began to bad mouth the tools etc is wrong.

One guy said he spent $1000 dollars on festools, I guessing he thinks thats a lot of money tied up in a brand of tool.
In reality with Festools that $1000 couldnt buy a Kapex.
I've had nothing but good resolve when I had issues and worked with them and my dealers to help solve issues.
But I went to them first before coming here and complaining.
To give you a comparison, I have close to $15,000 invested in festools. Some you cant get in the USA I bought from my time in the UK. I have nothing but good resolve in dealing with festool UK and Festool USA.
I guess its all about expectations. Just because a tool cost more does itmean the company has to treat you like your royalty or special?
No not really. They do give very good customer service.
Yes ive had issues with a couple of my tools and they were taken care of quickly and I was happy with the results.

So back to the topic at hand, I think people should post concerns about issues, but to come and whine without giving festool the chance to resolve the issue first is plain wrong. To come and whine because festool didnt respond to their issue the way they THINK they should of is wrong to.

Remember we live in a society where if you buy a car and are unhappy with the car you can sell te car and buy another brand of car. We have a choice.

 

[TSO_Products]

[member=1674]Peter Halle[/member] – you raise questions that resonate with quite a few here. Coming to constructive conclusions would clearly benefit from some structured exploration of different approaches, involving a cross-section of individuals – not just tool users but dealer- and manufacturer representatives alike.

This gets us into the area of trying to help others see what we think they are missing.  So that leaves individuals who simply “believe in contributing ” like the Tom Baders and Peter Parfitts of the world plus others perhaps less widely known but nonetheless valued contributors. In my experience, contributing has always yielded me more than I could ever give or give back. Strange how that universal principle continues to work.

I will try to make it to Las Vegas FESTOOL Connect for some dinnertime conversation with like minded FOGgers. See you there.

Hans