How often do you sharpen your blades?

[K119Phil]

Hey all!

K-119 carries a variety of circular saw blades (we sharpen too!), and the general consensus we get from our Festool clients are that Festool TS & Kapex blades last ridiculously longer than competitive blades.  

What make/model of blades do you use with your TS55/75 & Kapex, and how often do you sharpen?

Also, what materials do your saws go through, for a clearer point of reference.

Looking forward to hearing from you guys!  Thanks!

 

[Frank Pellow]

I have lots and lots of different blades for different tools and they get sharpened at different intervals (if at all).

I assume that you are talking about sharpening Festool circular saw blades and your survey needs to include other options such as once a year, once every two years, once every five years.

 

[K119Phil]

good point on clarification.  done!

 

[AlexThePalex]

Hm.... now my "you can sharpen blades?" vote is changed to "once every six months".

I think there's a big difference between pro's and hobbyists in the frequency they have to sharpen blades. I've had only 2 blades sharpened in 20 years. Most of the time I look for a good deal and buy some new.

 

[Sparktrician]

Another option might be "Whenever they need it."  That can vary based on type of tool,  Circular saw blades often seem to need sharpening more frequently than router bits for me. 

 

[K119Phil]

Alex: I hit "reset results" to re-enter the options... maybe somebody else also hit "you can sharpen blades?" right after :  Very good point on hobbyist versus professional - though I'm tempted to say individual hobbyists (using their own tools) are more careful and diligent with upkeep as compared to contractors using company tools.  "I just buy new" is a very good option - will add to the survey.

Sparktrician: Variance amongst tools / use is definite... but I'm trying to get some slightly more measurable data 

To build more context around my curiosity...

The short version is that amongst all the circular saw blades that come in weekly for sharpening, maybe one in twenty... one in thirty, is a Festool blade.  We just don't see them that often.  I've chatted with our Festool clients whether they do any specific upkeep with their blades, and the general answer is simply - "I don't know, these Festool blades just don't dull out that quick."  Hence the survey now here, to see if this observation holds true with you guys

 

[ccarrolladams]

Hi Phil, what an interesting topic!

Had 'When they need it' been an option I would have checked that.

However, I selected 'Once a week' because that is when our sharpening/grinding vendor. pick up/delivery happens.

When we receive new saw blades that will be sharpened, we laser etch them with unique serial numbers, and we create an 'account' for each blade so its use and history, as well as crucial dimensions, can be followed.

My rule of thumb is to buy 3 of the commonly use blades per saw. For example we have 6 Kapex and 18 each of the 60 and 80 tooth blades. We have fewer of the SS/Laminate and Aluminum/Plastic blades because we do not use those often on the Kapex.

We have so many TS55 that I do not keep 3 of the 48 tooth Fine on hand per saw because on any given day only 3 or 4 TS55 are being used. For the TS55 I stock none of the Panther blades because I do not use them for ripping lumber, and we seldom use the 12 tooth Standard blade. We do not actually saw plastics or aluminum in my cabinet shop, but like the 28 tooth Universal blade for some forms of wood products they have their uses, so I own 6-8 of each.

I only own 2 of the TS75, but some of my cabinet makers use their personal TS75, for which they use my blades. For the TS75 probably the most used is the Panther 16 tooth, closely followed by the Universal, SS and A/P blades. I own enough of each we are covered while some are being sharpened.

Near every station where blades are used I keep a supply of a multi-part 'Blade Report' form based on standard movie industry 'Camera Report' forms taped to every can of film sent to be developed. Our name and so forth is printed on the forms. Every cabinet maker who uses saws in my shop has the authority to remove a blade from service. That might just be for cleaning. Still, they fill in the S/N of the blade, the date, the S/N of the saw being used, and instructions what they want done to the blade. At the lunch break and end of shift all the removed blades are brought to the tool room. Ones only needing cleaning are put aside. All of us rotate on the blade cleaning detail. After the blades only needing cleaning have been returned for more use, the blades to be sharpened are cleaned. All of them will have their 'account' up-dated as the report forms come in, even for cleaning only.

Before blades are placed in the carton for sharpening, those report forms were entered in detail on the blade individual accounts. For every blade being sent for sharpening there is a computer-generated instruction sheet for the vendor. Long ago I worked out the design of that software with the sharpening vendor and representatives of their other clients. We also send the vendor the same data by e-mail, so they already know the mix of blades they will be sharpening in the pick-up. If they want to they can look up in their own records the sharpening history of every blade.

We use a similar report form for shaper, jointer and planer knives. The S/N are smaller on router bits, but we still use bit report forms. It might seem silly, but many bits used on the CNC machines cost more than TS55 blades. We need to keep track and we also need to know which are being sharpened.

I believe strongly in sending blades and bits for sharpening before they absolutely need it. This prolongs the useful life of the blade. We do not directly scrap blades of bits. After decades of doing business with my grinding and sharpening vendor I trust that judgment when they report certain bits and blades can no longer be economically sharpened again. Those blades we offer as donations to not for profit shops who might still find some use in them, or to schools where trainees learn to sharpen blades.

Of course we also own and use larger blades on our pressure beam saw, the Felder sliding table saw and the large radial arm saw. The slider and the RA saw use the same blades, up to 550mm dia. The pressure beam and slider saws have scoring units, which can be programed for use, or move out of the way, depending on the material. Those scoring units save a fortune in primary blade sharpening.

 

[pugilato]

Wow... does this preventive maintenance program help save money?

 

[ccarrolladams]

Wow... does this preventive maintenance program help save money?

If my 65 years experience making money building cabinets has taught me anything, it is that preventive maintenance of the machines themselves save money, but the same is even more true about sharpening. The most effective policy is to sharpen before it is absolutely necessary. This is true for hand plane irons and chisels. The idea is to keep them clean of resins and so on and to sharpen before the original configuration of the teeth is changed. This way you remove much less material and you do not need to attach replacement teeth.

The record keeping is just good business policy. I want to be sure the wear is evenly spread over the population of blades and bits. It also is helpful to know if one saw is wearing blades faster than average, or if a saw seems to keep its blades sharp longer. That is one we study to learn how to improve the others.

Probably none of this applies to a DIY or hobby situation, unless woodworking is combined with making spreadsheets as a hobby.

Seriously once you get into the habit of starting to fill in the blade report before even removing the blade from the saw it becomes second nature. Most of us start the form when we install a blade and that is taped to the blade change safety door. That same piece of tape will hold the report to the blade while it waits to be sharpened. 

 

[Kev]

Another option might be "Whenever they need it."  That can vary based on type of tool,  Circular saw blades often seem to need sharpening more frequently than router bits for me. 

+1

I like blades to be sharp, but I'm not in a position where I need to sharpen in advance / proactive ... so I just do it when necessary, regardless of edge type.

 

[jacko9]

All of my woodworking machine blades are high quality carbide and I never run used wood through my machines.  So, I don't need to sharpen my blades very often (less than multiple years).

I have to agree with ccarrolladams that minor nicks or dull edges accelerate the edge quickly leading to more severe sharpening needs.

Jack

 

[K119Phil]

Wow... does this preventive maintenance program help save money?

...preventive maintenance of the machines themselves save money, but the same is even more true about sharpening. The most effective policy is to sharpen before it is absolutely necessary. This is true for hand plane irons and chisels. The idea is to keep them clean of resins and so on and to sharpen before the original configuration of the teeth is changed. This way you remove much less material and you do not need to attach replacement teeth.

The record keeping is just good business policy. I want to be sure the wear is evenly spread over the population of blades and bits. It also is helpful to know if one saw is wearing blades faster than average, or if a saw seems to keep its blades sharp longer. That is one we study to learn how to improve the others.

Probably none of this applies to a DIY or hobby situation, unless woodworking is combined with making spreadsheets as a hobby.

Pugilato: Carroll is absolutely correct.  A sharp blade cuts, a dull blade chips, and the whole point (pun intended) is to maintain the blade/tooth's original configuration.  Proper upkeep does prolong the service life of blades!

Carroll: What inspiring business acumen!  I love the idea of pairing blades to a dedicated saw as a means of tracking saw performance and adjustments.  I can see what Allen means when he says that the guys at Festool are factory trained by you!  I also need to admit a jawdrop (and double-take) when I read "6 Kapex".  That's how many we stock sir.  Now I feel obligated to request a tour of your shop.  I'll let you know next time I'm in town 

That said, I am curious - have any of you had any experience with aftermarket blades for Festool saws?  Our Festool clients unanimously use Festool blades, citing quality and durability (rarely needing to be sharpened, superior cleaner cuts). 

It's a bit of a tricky scenario to do a fair comparison, but I suppose it boils down to these three combinations...

- non-Festool saw + non-Festool blade
- Festool saw + Festool blade
- Festool saw + aftermarket blade

Of saw blade brands for non-Festool saws, we sell mostly Matsushita and Tenryu, both reputable high-end carbide blade manufactures, yet these come back fairly frequently (weekly, bi-weekly) for sharpening. 

Leading me to wonder if it's in fact the Festool saw's tighter tolerances which may contribute to less blade wear and tear...?

 

[ccarrolladams]

Pugilato: Carroll is absolutely correct.  A sharp blade cuts, a dull blade chips, and the whole point (pun intended) is to maintain the blade/tooth's original configuration.  Proper upkeep does prolong the service life of blades!

Carroll: What inspiring business acumen!  I love the idea of pairing blades to a dedicated saw as a means of tracking saw performance and adjustments.  I can see what Allen means when he says that the guys at Festool are factory trained by you!  I also need to admit a jawdrop (and double-take) when I read "6 Kapex".  That's how many we stock sir.  Now I feel obligated to request a tour of your shop.  I'll let you know next time I'm in town 

That said, I am curious - have any of you had any experience with aftermarket blades for Festool saws?  Our Festool clients unanimously use Festool blades, citing quality and durability (rarely needing to be sharpened, superior cleaner cuts). 

It's a bit of a tricky scenario to do a fair comparison, but I suppose it boils down to these three combinations...

- non-Festool saw + non-Festool blade
- Festool saw + Festool blade
- Festool saw + aftermarket blade

Of saw blade brands for non-Festool saws, we sell mostly Matsushita and Tenryu, both reputable high-end carbide blade manufactures, yet these come back fairly frequently (weekly, bi-weekly) for sharpening. 

Leading me to wonder if it's in fact the Festool saw's tighter tolerances which may contribute to less blade wear and tear...?

Both sides of my family included successful business owners. I started buying equipment which I rented out to others before I was in high school. While an executive with a major movie/TV studio I was sent to Yale for a PhD in Economics, so keeping records is in my DNA.

Actually, Phil, I only pair the blades for the CNC pressure beam saw with it because no other saw in my shop uses that size. We have a selection of tooth count and design for that saw. Its scoring blades also are unique in my shop, but those are all the same tooth count and style. My large radial arm saw was built to use the same blades as my Felder slider saw. However, we actually only use the largest Felder blades, 550mm dia, on the RA. Those are intended for cross cuts in rough lumber. The slider saw uses a wider range of blade sizes and tooth configuration, since it is used to rip as well as cross-cut.

For the Kapex and TSxx saws, when a blade is sent for cleaning or service we note from which saw by S/N it was removed, but all blades of similar size and type are in a common pool. For example, when a blade is removed from Kapex #1 for cleaning, it will be replaced by a similar blade from the pool. After cleaning that blade goes back into the pool. Had the blade been removed for sharpening, it would be cleaned and then put in the drawer for pick-up and the sharpening service req will be computer generated. After sharpening the blade goes back into the pool at the bottom of the stack.

Before I built the large shop I opened in mid 2010, I rented space as I had projects, so I often was building two projects in different rented shops at the same time. So soon after I received my first Kapex, the second one from my dealer, and the back-order situation cleared, I bought a second Kapex. My large shop was designed to have miter saw/Kapex benches on opposite walls. One also has the large RA saw on the same bench 6' away. The other Kapex station is for the face frame/door/drawer front department. The master cabinet maker who we call 'Frame Guy' was ahead of me in line the midnight the Kapex arrived. He always wanted to use his personal Kapex. But the shop area is 250' long by 70' wide, so I also included 2 roving Kapex with a CT22 on a low shelf of those carts. Then I knew I wanted the best looking of my Kapex for the installation crew. Later I bought Frame Guy's Kapex and a second Kapex for installations. I have really clean CT36 for the installations.

Originally we expected to do a lot of cross-cutting for doors and frames on the Felder slider. That is super accurate, but so are the Kapex. The two permanently located Kapex have CNC Tiger Stops instead of conventional flag stop rails. This saves a lot of walking back and forth changing stop position. I already owned those for my metal fabrication business. The advantage over the less expensive Saw Gear from the same vendor is the Tiger Stops accept CNC orders, although since they saw my system in action the ability to accept CNC instructions has become optional on the Saw Gear.

Yes, I have tested many non-Festool blades for the Kapex and TSxx. Bottom line is so far none can produce Festool cut quality over the life of a blade before sharpening as long as the Festool blades last. Sharpening a less expensive blade costs the same, since it is mostly priced by the tooth. And, the Festool blades can be sharpened significantly more often.

As I replied to a member who wanted to know how I find time for such experimentation, this is how I maintain my competitive advantage. Long experience has taught me that it is the cost over the life of the machine, tool or blade that is important, not the original purchase price. Probably before I retire a Kapex blade I will have spent more sharpening it than buying it. So if I pay 25% more for a Kapex blade that lasts 150% as long as a less expensive blade, I am ahead of the cost of ownership. I also save by stocking fewer blades and in time lost for blade changes.

Of course in a DIY or hobby shop blade might only be sharpened every few years, so those folks need to use their judgment.

Two other things to consider: Relationships with your vendors, be you a large shop owner or hobbyist. I have been buying nearly all my cabinet plywood and hardwood from the same wholesale vendor for 60+ years since I moved to California in 1950. My grinding service has been that vendor for my metal fabrication shop since 1960. In 1961 I started a cabinet business in Pasadena and used the go-to wood blade sharpening service there, but he retired in 1988. Then I began having that work done by my tool grinder.

When my primary B&M dealer was the sales rep for INCA he put me together with a dealer where I bought a portable INCA table saw, which I still own. His brother is my industrial plumber. Then my dealer opened his own store and in 2006 had opened his larger store where he sold me my first Festools on a day I went there for a large slider saw for which I was expecting to rent or lease a big shop. I play fair with my vendors by paying on time. They ask what I need stocked. Back in 2009 when I decided to build a new shop, I asked my lumber and Festool dealer to drop the word that I was accepting applications. Actually I had met most of these people previously, but it is better that all of them also know and trust my vendors.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

I'm a hobbyist, but I'm retired and in the shop most days.  I get my TS55 blades sharpened about once a year.  Depends, of course, on how much I use it and what I use it on.  MDF is not your blade's friend.

I do, however, clean my blades about once a month.  Makes a huge difference.

If I am working with expensive veneers or tricky wood, I will clean, hone, or resharpen every blade, bit, or burr that will touch that material before I start the project. 

 

[plouf]

Hi Jesse,

I should do that sometimes too. Could you please explain how you clean them?

Regards,

- alain -

MDF is not your blade's friend.
I do, however, clean my blades about once a month.  Makes a huge difference.