How safe are plunge cut saws?

[mastercabman]

I was doing some research for someone who like to invest in a track saw system.He's not sure if he can spend that much money for a Festool yet,so i told him that there are other alternative,such as the EZ smart by Eurekazone.
So i went to their web site and started to look around to get some idea on how much,what he would need and so on.
I then went to the forum and started to read some of the topics.
I came upon a topic that asked about a Festool TS 55 saw.The first reply was saying that "plunge cut saws are not safe" 
This person went on saying that if you use dust collection on the saw,saw dust built up and can send the saw flying.And some other things
I also read other thread stating that plunge cut saws are not safe.
I have had my saw for about 7 years now,and never came close to an unsafe situation.Personally i think they are safer than a regular saw
Has anyone read or heard anything like it?  Are there been major injuries reported from using a plunge cut saw?

 

[peter halle]

I can say that in all honesty this forum is the largest in the world regarding Festool and we have a policy of only moderating posts that do not meet the guidelines which are posted.  NOT included in those guidelines is anything about posting negative things about Festool.  The only catch is that the post must be polite.

With over 12,000 members here at this point in time I have never read about an injury from a TS saw.

Have there been posts about kickback at the start of the cut.  Yep.  But the design of the saw and the physics of the kickback work to retract the blade in combination with human reactions.

This are my observations.

Peter

 

[tjbnwi]

I am an active member and moderator at JLC. Dino (the owner of Eurekazone) has posted there that the plunge saw is unsafe. I'm not sure why he makes this claim. Ive made many cuts with my TS that I would have been apprehensive about with any other saw.

Any cutting operation has its risk, I know, I cut the tip of a finger off with a razor knife when cutting drywall.

I believe Dino uses bots that track his name and Eurekazone, he may stop by to respond.

Tom

 

[peter halle]

I am an active member and moderator at JLC. Dino (the owner of Eurekazone) has posted there that the plunge saw is unsafe. I'm not sure why he makes this claim. Ive made many cuts with my TS that I would have been apprehensive about with any other saw.

Any cutting operation has its risk, I know, I cut the tip of a finger off with a razor knife when cutting drywall.

I believe Dino uses bots that track his name and Eurekazone, he may stop by to respond.

Tom

This post is not a post against Dino's product.  Unfortunately due to repeated violations of the posted guidelines of the forum he is unable to stop by an d offer his input.

Peter - moderator

 

[tjbnwi]

I did not know he is a former member.

Tom

 

[Bob Marino]

  Years ago  on some  of the WW forums, the battles between the Festool and EZ adherents had to be closed by the Moderators. Take what you'd read on the EZ site  - especially those posts written years ago with the proverbial grain of salt.
 Having said that, I am not familiar with the Dewalt and Makita versions of the track saws, so I will confine it to the Festool saws.
 You will first have to hear the obvious first admonitions - all tools are/can be dangerous - and of course that's true, especially if there is carelessness on the part of the operator. There isn't anything in the shop that can't do damage.
Having said that, the plunge cut saws offer obvious safety features over standard Circular saws..
They are stabilized with the track, not free handed - lessening chance of kickback.
You must "press, then plunge" to engage the saw.
During the cut, the blade is shrouded and when pressure is released from trigger, the saw stops and retracts into it's hood.

 I've never heard anything of the sort about dust collection being anything but a benefit to safety and health.
Again, this isn't to say that unexpected things can't happen. Years ago, while at a woodworking show, I was demoing the ATF 55 saw, making very, very thin strips  and at the finish of one cut, that thin piece of wood shot out and hit an      observer's hand; nothing serious, thank the Lord. A bandaid fixed it right up, but made me more aware that even after making dozens of such cuts, accidents can and do happen.

My most serious cut occur ed from carelessness  - I had the Rotex locked into the on position, connected to the CT but I shut it off by pulling the CT plug from the wall - laziness on my part. Picked up the Rotex, plugged in the CT and the Rotex loosened from my grip and sliced my other hand - no biggie, just a nasty slice,  but my long winded story reiterates that any tool can be dangerous if proper caution isn't taken.

Bob

 

[Kevin D.]

Used without a track versus a traditional circular saw, yes, I see a plunge as being a more dangerous venture.  I've never done it myself for that matter, nor would I think I'd ever want or need to, but I've read of others doing it.

Insofar as the dust extraction causing jam-ups in the housing, maybe the element NOT mentioned in such scenarios is someone using the saw with a bricked bag, or in fact a shopvac with the guts of a Dustbuster.

 

[rustynail]

I had a 55 saw for years that I got when I purchased a cut table from BradBerry Industries (Panel Saw Cut Table) and never had any problems or ever had a kick back.

Rusty

 

[sheeschen]

I can only imagine it's the idea of a plunge cut that's unsafe, and maybe some people think if you've got a plunge cut saw, that's what you're going to be doing all the time.

When I've suffered kickback with my ATF55 (twice - I'm a slow learner), I was left with a few tooth marks on the tracks and a shot of adrenaline.  I was amazed I wasn't hurt and that I didn't do more damage, but the combo of the braking electronics and the spring to snap the plate over the blade minimizes damage.  For the record, one of those times was ripping (I now own a Panther blade) and the other time was actually plunge cutting - I was cutting a square out of the middle of a piece of plywood so it would fit over a window.  In the second case, I knew the risks, and was positioned beside the blade, not behind it, while plunging slowly.

I can see it possibly being less safe than a standard circular saw guard - imagine the kickback sending the track plate into something with enough force that the momentum of the motor weight compresses the spring a little.  That might expose the teeth enough to cause some damage.  I don't know if the saw would kick back with enough force to do that, but maybe.  A standard circular saw guard would only open up if the saw were moving opposite the direction of kickback.  Maybe the plunge saw is less safe in that and some other situations, but in general, when combined with the track it seems much, much safer than a normal circular saw.

I don't quite understand the sawdust problem.  Does the person mean the sawdust is totally filling the area around the blade, and then somehow causing the blade to lock up and torque the saw out of your hand?  That seems like a big stretch.  Maybe that could happen, but it sounds like complaining that a vacuum doesn't work after the bag fills up.  With any tool you need to make sure it's in good shape before you use it and monitor it while you're using it - stop using a sawblade if it starts smoking like crazy, stop drilling if the bit breaks or the battery heats up too much.

Once I got my plunge saw, I stopped using my old circular saw very much and eventually sold it off.  The times I used it felt less safe than with the plunge saw on a track or a miter saw, so I just didn't want to use it any more.  Just my opinion and experience - I know to continue treating the power tools with respect, because nothing's 100% safe.

 

[ScotF]

I think that plunge cut saws are extremely safe when used properly.  The riving knife, retracting into the housing, DC, etc... all work to make them safe cutting tools.  Any tool can be dangerous and working with machinery of any kind is inherently dangerous but I feel very safe using my TS75 over other circular saws and my table saw. 

Scot

 

[Rick Christopherson]

This is a very old topic from way back when Burt and Dino were members at the WoodNet forum. (They got banned there too.)

Making a plunge cut is dangerous with any saw. Unfortunately, these two guys have changed this around to say that plunge cut saws are dangerous. They use it as a marketing ploy to confuse people, because you cannot make a plunge cut using the EZ guide system. It's actually a negative against the EZ guide system, but they've put a spin on it to sound like a positive safety feature.

However, most cuts with a guided saw are not plunge cuts. A plunge cut is when you are plunging the blade down into the middle of the workpiece where there is un-cut material behind the blade. The reason why this is a dangerous cut is because the back of the blade is making a "climb-cut" and will tend to lift the saw off the rail if you are not using the back-stop (provided with all Festool saws).

Here is a screen capture I extracted from my video on using the TS55 saw showing the setup for a plunge cut. The cut is made between the blue tape lines. However, notice that I have the backstop installed on the guide rail.

[attachimg=#]

Oh, I suppose I should post the whole video. Oops. This section on plunge cutting begins at around 11-1/2 minutes into the video. (Oh that's funny. The preview image of the video is from this plunging scene.  [tongue] )

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Any tool can be dangerous if used outside of spec.  When used as designed, I feel safer with the TS than any other saw I have ever used.

Any circular saw can potentially have kickback.  I have seen it in standard circ saws and know people who have had serious injuries.

The only safety situation I have personally had with the TS, after several years work, was once when I started much sooner on the track than I should have, clearly in violation of Festool's manual.   The saw jumped and left a mark on the track but stopped immediately.  The only damage was to my underwear.

The dust collection theory sounds like total hooey to me, while the dust problems from a regular circ saw are very serious..

 

[promhandicam]

snip. . . The reason why this is a dangerous cut is because the back of the blade is making a "climb-cut" and will tend to lift the saw off the rail if you are not using the back-stop (provided with all Festool saws).

Is that all Festool saws sold in the USA - because I didn't get one with either of my saws bought in the UK.

 

[cgmojoco]

IMHO its safer than a table saw!

Of course that doesn't combat blatant user ignorance.  (and now another famous tangent from me).

One example is not fully supporting both the keeper and offcut sides of the workpiece.  All you need are two tables (yah yah TWO MFT's will work but you don't even need MFT's to cut a full sheet regular folding tables will work too).  You can also use foam on the floor, but I hate kneeling.  That doesn't mean clamping both sides of the workpiece (that isn't good), just need to SUPPORT both sides and potentially clamp the keeper side.

I've had a guy 'borrow the saw and guide for a cut' on site to cut a sheet of ply.  An older fella with all ten fingers and years of experience in the construction trade so I assumed he was reasonably intelligent.

I look away for a second turn around and the guy already starts the cut right down the middle of the sheet...with only about half of the sheet supported on a table!...quite a lot of pinching on that riving knife towards the end with him holding one hand under the offcut side of the workpiece to try and support half a sheet and the other on the saw, but the motor just slowed down and never did kick back (Lucky fella)!  Obviously, I had a conversation with him so he wouldn't cut his hand off with a regular circular saw after I snatched my T75 back out of his hands and told him he really should go to some safety training good lord!  Seriously, power tools are dangerous; respect them!

Learn how to use them and your chances of injury are going to reduced 90%.  Sometimes I wonder if that should be MANDATORY before you are allowed to work on site (where your ignorance can possibly injure more than yourself) here in the states.

I've seen fellas do some really really stupid things with circular saws (like the above---or cutting through knots---pull cutting; drop-into the wood cutting), miter saws (pulling instead of pushing through the stock---with their heads right over the piece so they can 'see the cut better' or worse yet, using the miter saw as a table saw....sigh, throwing sheets of ply through those cheap contractor table saws WITHOUT A FENCE; without a splitter/riving knife in a sloping driveway perpendicular to the slope.... without glasses, with one guy pulling the piece on the other side....sigh sigh sigh).  Sometimes I feel like I'm the safety police---probably saved a few extremities and maybe a life or two---mostly I get dirty looks and 'Hey relax its no big deal'....I'm concerned about my own safety when working around such ignorance, those pieces could come flying at me (pieces of wood or pieces of him!); so with a few more words they realize it IS a big deal.

I digress, I think the Festool track saw is one of the safer tools out there for ripping (and or crosscutting for that matter)---go take some training at one of the Festool training locations to really get all you can out of it, and learn a little safety while you are at it.

With a non-clogged Festool extractor and plunge, I've NEVER had any trouble ripping/crosscutting.  I've never plunge cut though.

Christopher

 

[ccarrolladams]

As usual, Rick C is absolutely correct. At least in North America both the TS55 and TS75 include 1 of the limit stops, cat 491 582.

Those are shown on page 53 of the 2011/2012 catalog.

When placed at the end of a cut, the limit stop defines where the cut will end.

To prevent kick-back while plunging, the limit stop is installed behind the saw such that it actually traps the saw base so it cannot lift off the rail.

I have purchased a second limit stop for all of my TS55 and TS75

 

[Rick Christopherson]

snip. . . The reason why this is a dangerous cut is because the back of the blade is making a "climb-cut" and will tend to lift the saw off the rail if you are not using the back-stop (provided with all Festool saws).

Is that all Festool saws sold in the USA - because I didn't get one with either of my saws bought in the UK.

I cannot confirm this for other countries, but I would expect that it should be standard on all saws because it is a safety device. Maybe it wasn't done long in the past.

It is actually handy to have 2 of them. Then you can use the second one as a front stop to make a blind plunge like the picture I showed. It will control where you start and stop the cut.

edit: Oh, I just remembered that my original ATF55 may not have come with one. I gave that saw to my dad so I can't be sure any more. Oops. I take that back. I show one in the ATF55 manual, so therefore I did have one with that saw.

 

[tbellemare]

There are many people that work on the theory that if you state inaccurate information, definitively, enough times, it will be perceived as fact.

In reality, no matter how loud you tell a lie or how many times it is stated, it is still not true. Unfortunately, the world is about half full of people who don't seem to realize that.

Tom

 

[Nigel]

snip. . . The reason why this is a dangerous cut is because the back of the blade is making a "climb-cut" and will tend to lift the saw off the rail if you are not using the back-stop (provided with all Festool saws).

Is that all Festool saws sold in the USA - because I didn't get one with either of my saws bought in the UK.

I got one with my 75 but not the 55 both UK machines.

 

[Alan m]

no stops here either.
i think a plunge saw is one of the safest saws out there.
the only time i had a kickback was my own fault. i was cutting a door. i presumed the middle vartical rail was glued. when i cut it free it mooved forward and pinched the blade. the saw flew back and up. everything was good in the end because by the time the saw landed  again the saw had unplunged itself  so i was protected from the spinning blade.

 

[Ari]

Safe.

My experience about plunge cuts comes from Makita SP6000. I plan to buy a TS75 but for now, it is SP.

I feel very safe using the saw for plunge cuts, respecting all the safety rules. Never had any thing that I can report here about any accident or incident.

Rick, your "class video" is sooo good. Thanks

Best from

Ari