How square fence to table on CMS/

[bmikl]

I am assembling my new CMS. The fence has 2 nylon adjustment screws to square the fence to the table. I can never get both the infeed and outfeed square relative to the table. Also, when I have it square as best I can and move the fence from that location, it has to be readjusted square. I have to square the fence to the table every time I move the fence?????
Any input would greatly be appreciated.

 

[mouppe]

I am struggling to envisage what you mean? Do you mean getting the fence perpendicular to the table? Or getting the infeed and outfeed fences coplanar?

I made a short video about getting the fences in-line, the relevant part starts at 3.30. To square the fence to the mitre gauge, I would tighten one fence to the table, and pivot the whole assembly until it lies flush against my woodpecker square. Then I would tighten down the second fence.

(To be honest, I can't remember the last time I needed the fence to be square to a mitre gauge for routing.)

 

[bmikl]

Getting the fence perpendicular to the table.

 

[Nigel]

  First get the two halves co-planar then set the nylon screws to get the fence perpendicular .

 

[bmikl]

I get the fence coplanar and perpendicular to the table but when I move the whole fence it needs to be readjusted in order to be perpendicular to the table. Does this fence need to be adjusted perpendicular to the table every time I move it? This does not seem correct.

 

[John Stevens]

I get the fence coplanar and perpendicular to the table but when I move the whole fence it needs to be readjusted in order to be perpendicular to the table.

How flat is your table?  I'd think that the flatter it is, the less the fence will move out of perpendicular as you move it.  Hope this helps.

Regards,

John

 

[Rocky]

try this.  http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/Festool-CMS-Router-Table-Supplemental-Manual.pdf Also this http://www.tool-home.com/products/catalog/festool_cms_of.php

 

[sancho57]

Should answer your question

 

[Sparktrician]

I am struggling to envisage what you mean? Do you mean getting the fence perpendicular to the table? Or getting the infeed and outfeed fences coplanar?

The only time I can see a need for having the fence perfectly aligned to the front surface of the CMS is when using the supplemental fence on the sliding table of the CMS-GE.  Is this what you mean, or are you (the OP) talking about getting the working face of the fence vertically perpendicular to the horizontal work surface of the CMS? 

 

[peter halle]

I think that the issue is that the fence is not perpendicular to the table.  The video does not show that adjustment.  I believe that the supplemental manual does. 

I ran into issues when experimenting with vertical bits and raised panel doors and the bottom of the two fences were in the same plane but the tops weren't.  At JLC I got a moment alone with Sedge ( a rarity at an event like this.  Geesh, the popularity of that guy is like Elvis minus the sideburns  [big grin]) and asked him how to adjust.  He pointed out the two screws at the base of the fence holding assembly and cautioned me to loosen the bolts that lock the fence to the table slightly before making adjustments.  Then lock those back down and check.

Maybe this Sedgelyism will help someone else.

Thanks Sedge, just passing it on Dude.

Peter

 

[Nigel]

I think that the issue is that the fence is not perpendicular to the table.  The video does not show that adjustment.  I believe that the supplemental manual does. 

I ran into issues when experimenting with vertical bits and raised panel doors and the bottom of the two fences were in the same plane but the tops weren't.  At JLC I got a moment alone with Sedge ( a rarity at an event like this.  Geesh, the popularity of that guy is like Elvis minus the sideburns  [big grin]) and asked him how to adjust.  He pointed out the two screws at the base of the fence holding assembly and cautioned me to loosen the bolts that lock the fence to the table slightly before making adjustments.  Then lock those back down and check.

Maybe this Sedgelyism will help someone else.

Thanks Sedge, just passing it on Dude.

Peter

Surely nobody in their right mind would try to adjust these with fence locked down?

I get the fence coplanar and perpendicular to the table but when I move the whole fence it needs to be readjusted in order to be perpendicular to the table. Does this fence need to be adjusted perpendicular to the table every time I move it? This does not seem correct.

The OP seems to have adjusted the fence perpendicular but has a problem when it's moved. Logically if the module plate is flat the fence will remain perpendicular when it's moved.So if there is problem when the fence is moved then the plate is not flat it is either dished or bowed. There's no way you should have to adjust these screws each time you move the fence.

 

[bmikl]

Peter, yes this is the issue. I adjust the nylon screws and the snug the black hold down screws. The fence is now perpendicular to the table top but when I move the fence away from the bit and retighten the black knob hold down screws, the fence is no longer perpendicular to the table top. This is because the distance between the nylon screws to the hold down screws has changed. This change in position now puts the fence out of square to the table top. I took off the fence and put it on a granite surface plate. Using a dial indicator to check square between bottom mounting surface and the work side of the fence, I observed that machined casting is out of square by up to .040". That really is a lot. Shouldn't the fence sit relatively square on its own base? I thought that maybe I had a bad fence so I went and looked at the display unit at my dealer and their fence had the same condition. I chewing at the bit to use my new toy but want things to be right.

 

[peter halle]

Based on this info I would advise you to give Festool a call tomorrow.  I am sure that they will help you in your situation.

Peter

 

[Brice Burrell]

Peter, yes this is the issue. I adjust the nylon screws and the snug the black hold down screws. The fence is now perpendicular to the table top but when I move the fence away from the bit and retighten the black knob hold down screws, the fence is no longer perpendicular to the table top. This is because the distance between the nylon screws to the hold down screws has changed. This change in position now puts the fence out of square to the table top. I took off the fence and put it on a granite surface plate. Using a dial indicator to check square between bottom mounting surface and the work side of the fence, I observed that machined casting is out of square by up to .040". That really is a lot. Shouldn't the fence sit relatively square on its own base? I thought that maybe I had a bad fence so I went and looked at the display unit at my dealer and their fence had the same condition. I chewing at the bit to use my new toy but want things to be right.

The fence being off shouldn't matter, the plate/top is another matter.  If the top isn't flat then moving the fence will throw it out of square, as others have already mentioned.  Test to see if the top is out.  

Now the million dollar question, how far out is it and is it really a problem??

 

[sancho57]

Peter, yes this is the issue. I adjust the nylon screws and the snug the black hold down screws. The fence is now perpendicular to the table top but when I move the fence away from the bit and retighten the black knob hold down screws, the fence is no longer perpendicular to the table top. This is because the distance between the nylon screws to the hold down screws has changed. This change in position now puts the fence out of square to the table top. I took off the fence and put it on a granite surface plate. Using a dial indicator to check square between bottom mounting surface and the work side of the fence, I observed that machined casting is out of square by up to .040". That really is a lot. Shouldn't the fence sit relatively square on its own base? I thought that maybe I had a bad fence so I went and looked at the display unit at my dealer and their fence had the same condition. I chewing at the bit to use my new toy but want things to be right.

I just checked mines. I adjusted the 2 screws brought the fence up to perpendicular  them moved the fence and tightened the knobs and it it needed adj again.

i think this is inherent in the fence. Because of where the tightening knobs are located evey time you tighten them it pulls the top of the fence back. I think if I were to add a shim say a very thin piece of rubber or plastic it would solve the issue.

 

[rnt80]

My fence requires the same adjustment.  I can't imagine Festool producing a router table that needs this type of adjusting every time you move the fence.  I understand that for many applications where the work piece is laying flat it's a moot point, but that is not the case for vertical routing.  I understand Brice's point that if it's not out by much it shouldn't be a big issue but a "good enough" attitude doesn't square (no pun intended) with my perception of how Festool designs and produces their products.

 

[Brice Burrell]

My fence requires the same adjustment.  I can't imagine Festool producing a router table that needs this type of adjusting every time you move the fence.  I understand that for many applications where the work piece is laying flat it's a moot point, but that is not the case for vertical routing.  I understand Brice's point that if it's not out by much it shouldn't be a big issue but a "good enough" attitude doesn't square (no pun intended) with my perception of how Festool designs and produces their products.

I recently posted in a thread where I mentioned expectations for some of the Festool tools being unrealistic.  I went as far as to say some people expect these tools to be a shrine to perfection.  I use tools to earn a living.  If they  can't do that, then I get excited.  If something possibly, might, maybe someday, in theory, not work out to be perfect, I don't care.  If on the other hand, I've tried using a tool and it proved to not work out, well then that's a different story. 

My point, tools aren't really for theoretical woodworking.  A preoccupation with insignificant increments is a waste of bandwidth on this and every other woodworking site.  Also, let's start viewing the term "good enough" as it should be, you know, as in the real meaning of the words.  Forget the negative stigma attached to the phrase, and adopt it as a real world philosophy for woodworking.....   

 

[rnt80]

Brice, my use of the term "good enough" wasn't meant to be a shot at you, my apologies if it came across that way.  No slight to Powermatic but in my experience Festool is widely perceived to be the gold standard among tools for the niche in which they fit - a perception they've done well to build and maintain.  I don't partake of theoretical woodworking but I do have expectations that time an again Festool has exceeded.  I cannot imagine a situation wherein Festool approaches the design of one of their products with a "good enough" attitude.  My expectation with something as basic as a router fence is that it stays perpendicular to the table without having to adjust it each time.  I don't think that is an unrealistic expectation to have.  As I mentioned previously, in most routing applications in won't matter, but when I route vertical pieces it's going to be an issue.  I'll admit that I am spoiled, right or wrong, when I purchase a product from Festool I have the expectation that these types of issues have been worked out before the tool hits the market.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Brice, my use of the term "good enough" wasn't meant to be a shot at you, my apologies if it came across that way.  No slight to Powermatic but in my experience Festool is widely perceived to be the gold standard among tools for the niche in which they fit - a perception they've done well to build and maintain.  I don't partake of theoretical woodworking but I do have expectations that time an again Festool has exceeded.  I cannot imagine a situation wherein Festool approaches the design of one of their products with a "good enough" attitude.  My expectation with something as basic as a router fence is that it stays perpendicular to the table without having to adjust it each time.  I don't think that is an unrealistic expectation to have.  As I mentioned previously, in most routing applications in won't matter, but when I route vertical pieces it's going to be an issue.  I'll admit that I am spoiled, right or wrong, when I purchase a product from Festool I have the expectation that these types of issues have been worked out before the tool hits the market.

I understood your use of "good enough", so no offense taken.  I think you're missing my meaning of "good enough".  I guess what I'm saying is maybe the fence is out of square to some degree but not enough to matter.  The op never mentioned how far out of square the fence is.  What he did mention was that he never used the CMS to find out if it was a problem at all. 

I'm with you on expecting more from Festool than most other tool manufactures.  However, I have realistic expectations.  I understand that for the most part these are portable tools so they have limitations.  I'm repeating myself here but I have to earn a living with these tools so I don't have time to focus on insignificant errors in the tools.  I'll admit I less patience for people that buy tools as a novelty. 

All the same, there's no real point in chasing down phantoms.  And remember, reporting phantom problems here potentially hurts Festool's reputation needlessly.  I'm not say that is the case with the op.  I don't know his exact circumstances.         

 

[mouppe]

My suggestion would be to square the fence when it is important for it to be square- let's say for vertical panel bits- and forget about it the rest of the time. I can't imagine a scenario where every single time you route it is a requirement to have a perfectly perpendicular fence.

No disrespect intended, but if it's important to the user that it be square all the time then perhaps there are more suitable router tables that aren't primarily intended to be portable and can be calibrated more easily.