I need help with this domino glue-up!

[Toller]

I am building a walnut table.  It has 27 slats, attached to two rails; each joint with a 6x40 domino.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~toller/slats.jpg
The picture shows the side rails with two slats. 

I just did a dry run.  The first side is easy enough, though it took 9 minutes.
The second side is impossible. I put a domino in each slat, but then getting them to fit in the corresponding slots on the side rail just can't be done.  When you get one into position, the one before it moves out because you can't really push them together until ALL are aligned.

I have three thoughts.
1) Glue all the dominoes in the slats first, to save a few minutes for the second step.  That would require just a tiny amount of glue so that squeeze out from shoving the domino in isn't a problem.  I figure that will be okay because with 27 dominoes holding it together, it is so over built that none of them has to be very strong.
2) Not putting any glue on the shoulder.  This is just to save time.  The loss of strength should be unimportant, and I am putting an outdoor varnish on it, so water infiltration (it is going on my deck) should not be a problem.
3) The big one...  sanding bevels on the dominoes to help them find their slot easier.  There is a small loss in gluing surface, but that shouldn't be important.

I am hoping someone has some better ideas than I do.  Thanks

 

[PaulMarcel]

Well, the sanding a bevel idea is a pretty good idea and you are correct that it really won't weaken the joint much.

I did a cabinet that required a lot of Dominos to line up on the second side as well much like your slats.  You might be able to use this idea even if you mortised already.

What I did was offset the first and last mortise depths.  With as many as you have, one in the middle would be good, too.  To explain: assume 8x40 Dominos.  All the slats and the rail would be mortised to a depth of 20mm except the first and last (and perhaps middle for you) of the second side.  Those would instead be mortised 15mm into the slat and 25mm into the rail.  Once you glue the slats to the first side (which are all 20mm/20mm.. no need for offset), you can move on to the second side.  I'd do it like this for more time (and I have to deal with this a lot living in dry-as-hell Arizona):

1. Apply glue to the mortises on the second rail (no Dominos; those will be in the slats).  In my case for something like this, I use TiteBond Extended.
2. Run a piece of packing tape over the side with the holes; you're looking to greatly slow down drying and skin-over.
3. Apply glue to the slat mortises and insert the Dominos.
4. Lastly, paint the exposed Domino ends with glue.

When you pull the tape from the rail, you can now concentrate on getting the offset Dominos in the holes first.  That gives you anchors on either end of the rail.  As you push Dominos into the rail from one end, the other end will want to pop out.  For that reason, I wrap packing tape around the end right after it is barely inserted.  You're looking to prevent it from being able to pop out, not cinch it down yet.  You should find that the intermediary Dominos are pretty easy to push in.  Your bevel idea (that I'll steal for another time  ) will likely make it even faster.

One last thing I've done in the past with a glue up on a miserably hot Arizona day... before step 4 above when the Dominos are in the slats, take a plant mister and dust the exposed Dominos ends with water mist.  They will get water from the glue anyway, but I find that this mist keeps the glue from immediately gumming up in our dry weather (note that this was done before I found TiteBond Extended).

Good luck

 

[Warrior]

+1 on sanding the bevels.

I have found the cure for stessed out glue ups and the source of stress free glue ups!

drum roll.......

here it is......

EPOXY GLUE! I love it!

I got so tired of racing the PVA time clock for multiple board glue-ups and multiple domino joint assemblies. I can put together 1/2 and entry set, go answer the phone or drink a soda and come back and finish the glue up. I dont like even the Titebond extended because even if the glue isnt set it dries out in about 7 min when its 80 deg or hotter. I have no worries with epoxy. I take my time and get it perfect. Alot of times when you are rushed you have to accept that things didnt go together perfectly because there wasnt enough time to make it so.

West systems resin and 206 hardener. No muss, no fuss, no worries!

 

[Dan Clark]

+1 on sanding the bevels.

I have found the cure for stessed out glue ups and the source of stress free glue ups!

drum roll.......

here it is......

EPOXY GLUE! I love it!

I got so tired of racing the PVA time clock for multiple board glue-ups and multiple domino joint assemblies. I can put together 1/2 and entry set, go answer the phone or drink a soda and come back and finish the glue up. I dont like even the Titebond extended because even if the glue isnt set it dries out in about 7 min when its 80 deg or hotter. I have no worries with epoxy. I take my time and get it perfect. Alot of times when you are rushed you have to accept that things didnt go together perfectly because there wasnt enough time to make it so.

West systems resin and 206 hardener. No muss, no fuss, no worries!

Eiji,

I took a look at the West System's stuff.  What's the setup and final cure time on that?

Thanks,

Dan.

 

[bobbobbob]

Dan,
Check out their website:  http://www.westsystem.com/ss/

All the info should be there and more!

Don't forget you have System Three in your backyard (Auburn).  You can get supplies direct from them as well.

http://www.systemthree.com/

 

[Warrior]

I like the west system because of the super easy pump measuring system.

I think the open time is about 45 min and clamp time is about 12hrs. I just clamp and set aside till the next day. I usually have plenty of other things I need to do in the meantime.

 

[jvsteenb]

Just a word of warning: Epoxies are great, and the West system is very usefull with the dosage pumps and all, but be advised that you shoud definitely wear protection when using them. The catalyst/hardener in the most commonly used epoxies can build up an allergy rather quick and that can become severe enough to make one sick just being in the same room where epoxy is worked! There's an alarming number of painters that had to work with epoxy putties in renovation and wood restoration that have developed this over time. So if you do lots of complicated glue-ups, that's something to be aware of. Latex gloves and a respirator will do the trick, as long as you're not in the habit of smearing stuff over yourself.
BTW, epoxy is inert when cured so no allergy reactions remain post-cure.

I hate to be a spoilsport or a doomsday prophet, but I'm quite amazed at how few people are even aware of this.

Regards,

Job

 

[Dan Clark]

Eiji and Gentlemen,

Cool.  Thanks for the info.  It turns out that there are dealers for both System Three and West System about three miles from here and within six blocks of each other. 

Thanks,

Dan.

p.s., I just ordered a gallon of Valspar Zenith Precat Lacquer at Parker Paint, which is between the System Three and West System dealers.  How's that for convenient?

 

[Toller]

EPOXY GLUE! I love it!

I have plenty of West's laminating epoxy.  Is that what we are talking about, or the new "thickened adhesive"?

 

[bonesbr549]

I had a complicated glue up and did the following.  I used titebond extend and I did the glue up on one side first on the tight fit side (I do one side tight fit and the mating side one size wider to allow for a tad bit of lateral movement for adjusting) I used a damp sponge to make sure the glue is nice and cleaned up.  Once dry I did the glue up on the opposite side slid it together and had time to make that lateral adjustment and clamped it up.  It worked, but I did plan it out dry run it and did not waste any time getting it done.  It was twelve joints so long opentime glue may be the trick.  I do like the titebond extend for that reason and use it most of the time for complicated glue-ups.  I've not hit one that required a longer open time yet, but I've been tired a couple times from hauling butt to get it done.    Good luck!

 

[Warrior]

EPOXY GLUE! I love it!

I have plenty of West's laminating epoxy.  Is that what we are talking about, or the new "thickened adhesive"?

I have the 105 resin and 206 hardener.
The systemthree looks good too.

 

[Toller]

EPOXY GLUE! I love it!

I have plenty of West's laminating epoxy.  Is that what we are talking about, or the new "thickened adhesive"?

I have the 105 resin and 206 hardener.
The systemthree looks good too.

The local woodcraft has System3 T88 adhesive.  It is thicker to fill joints better and has a much longer open time than my 105/205. 
Have you that?  How does it compare to the 105/205?

 

[Warrior]

I believe the 205 is a quick set hardener. Too fast for a complicated glue up but perfect for mixing up with the thickening agent for a filler.

One thing to keep in mind is that epoxy will soak into the wood a bit and leave a noticable glue line in light woods. Oak and anything darker it disappears. Also doesn't have the best performance in very porous woods unless you let it soak in and apply another coat after it soaks in. Another method is to wipe with mineral spirits before coating to lessen the draw into the pores. Info on West systems website.

Too bad there isn't a perfect glue for everything.

 

[Warrior]

The t88 looks even more convenient to use than the west systems pump system. I often have more waste than l would like.

 

[wnagle]

I haven't tried the West Systems yet.  When I have a longer gule up, I use Plastic resin glue.  It also comes in light or dark.  It's water proof and has at least 30 mins. of open time before clamping.