Input on a potential purchase of a Dust Extractor (Processors) Questions?

[JonnyBBravo]

I am just reaching out to inquire on thoughts and opinions with dust extractors. I understand everyone has there bias towards a brand such as onieda, powermatic, felder. I’m personally looking at the Harvey G700 and for a few reasons:

    1. I prefer to cry once rather then twice with my purchases and plan to keep it for the long term. I’m not rich but I can rub nickels together.
    2. The overall size and profile of the unit gives a little more flexibility in the containment of the processor. An ability to move this around as needed is crucial for me.
    3. Quietness, given I’m doing this in a residential area and wanna respect my neighbors. (I do not have the option to store it in a storage shed).

I am aware of Bents, Stumpy nubs, carpenter, bourbon moth (G800) YouTube videos of the Harvey models What I presently have is a Festool CT48 AC model which gives me flexibility with some of my homes DIY improvements and works quite well for my Festool tools.  Though I know this doesn’t have the ability to work for a dedicated table saw and other large debris producing tools. I’ve seen Oneida systems but I have to agree with some of the comments with regards to the cheap and thin plastic used on the mobile models is questionable given the associated costs.

I apologize if I’ve posted this in the wrong area. I just wanna know what anyone’s experience and opinions are as I intend to buy the most affordable dust extractor I can afford that will last me the long haul. An the woodworkers in my area I’ve spoken too about it think I’m crazy for not just looking at a simple dust bag collection system, but as I already know they tend to leak and push particles in the air of your shop so simplicity is also a consideration in my future purchase. Thank you for any responses on the topic. As I hope this helps not only myself but all woodworkers in the United States and Abroad. 

An if I am wrong about something please advise as this is a dialogue of discussion to help anyone.

 

[nclemmons]

My nephew has the Harvey 700 and really likes it.  He’s using on a sliding table saw.  I looked at them several years ago but went with a Laguna largely because I had more ‘vertical’ space than horizontal space.  The Harvey is also pretty heavy as I recall.  They are quiet.  Not sure how it would work in a ‘central’ setup with piping and multiple machines and drops.  The port for it as I recall is out the front, rather than the back which might affect where you place and how you might pipe it. 

Your biggest chip maker would likely be a planer or joiner.  Next likely is a router table.  I don’t find the TS to bet that much of a challenge for dust collection.  So think about placement.  Moving it around on projects will get old based on my experience. 

I started with a mobile PowerMatic after a Mobile Makita years ago.  I quickly went to a whole-shop unit for better collection and a cleaner shop layout.  That Harvey does take a lot of room to move around and it is heavy, so keep that in mind given your pathways in your shop.  I have a. 12” J/P and can fill the drum on my Laguna in 10 minutes, so I don’t do a lot of planing and when I do, I just bring in a trash can to my garage workshop for easy emptying and knock out any planing in a batch.

You can purchase a CFM meter on Amazon for not much money and it might be of help if you decide to do multiple tools and want to optimize piping and placement. 

I have TS, Planer, thickness sander, Drill Press, Bandsaw, drum sander and disc sander all plumbed to my Laguna and it works well with 4” PVC pipe. 

Neil

 

[JonnyBBravo]

[member=167]neilc[/member] (Neil) thank you for the response. Yes I have vertical and somewhat horizontal space. Though I plan to just use a flex hose with a quick connect system. On each tool as acquired or used. I’ve seen the upright laguna extractors just not sure how loud they are in use. But my experience building a cyclone with a cabinet maker I use to apprentice with a large drum canister under it was quite loud. More factors to consider now. Just looking to be able to roll everything around against a area in my garage and pull it out as needed is my approach.

 

[JonnyBBravo]

So I’m kinda between three company’s at the moment Oneida Air, ClearVue and Harvey. Any thoughts or experiences is appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Mini Me]

Any of those choices would generally mean the installation of a ducted system which will cost the same no matter which DE is selected. The only one I have had experience with is the Clearvue and it is very noisy and just about everyone has to take measures to reduce the noise which can be done successfully without a huge amount of effort. As a general rule if you move a lot of air which is the whole point then you make a lot of noise.

Something that is not done in the US but is standard practise in Oz is to use a three phase motor controlled by a VFD and this allows the DE to be run at different speeds for different reasons and that will affect the noise levels. I would not buy a single phase DE for a bet after many years of selling and working with three phase machines. I understand that using a three phase machine to most in the US is a very strange and foreign idea but it is the single best thing that can be done for total control of the DE and after all it is the same DE with a different motor and the VFD supplies the three phase from a 220V single phase power supply.

 

[greg mann]

While it isn’t that pertinent to the OP’s question, but more so to [member=58818]Mini Me[/member], three phase motor are usually cheaper than single phase while also being more reliable. Adding the VFD raises the cost but really makes for a better application overall.

That is something the OP may consider in his decision: get a unit with a 3PH motor and add the VFD to make it more adaptable and potentially quieter (when run at slower speeds).

 

[Mini Me]

It took me a few years to work out that being forced to use three phase was the best thing that could have happened. Sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees and the advantages are so obvious I wonder sometimes why cyclones are sold as single phase at all. Certainly in Oz three phase is the only power used and 99% of units are 240V.

 

[JonnyBBravo]

Thanks. Yes I’m aware you can use phase converters if you choose to go to a 3 phase unit. Currently wiring up here soon my shop an using 10gauge wiring for the 220V lines so the possibility to upgrade to 30amps is already there.

Presently I’m not sure the Harvey G700 is worth it’s value seeming how the impellers are getting the brunt over a cyclone. I’m just doing my research and trying to find a unit that has a high CFM in real time use which some specify like on Oneida air specs.

I appreciate the insights and feedback from you both.

 

[Bernmc]

Worth thinking about your space and ducting plan too. The Harvey takes up a chunk of horizontal space, but not much vertical, and the duct intake is on the front (which is a bit of a pain for a fixed ducting system). The clearvue is tall - so it takes a lot of vertical space rather than horizontal. Easier to aim the intake wherever you want to neaten up the ducting.

I'd 2nd the 3P/VFD motor - I regret getting a SP motor, and will change it to 3P when I eventually get around to sorting out the DE

 

[Birdhunter]

You have good advice to avoid the bag units. I had a bag collector years ago and fine dust was everywhere. I now have a couple of Oneida 220v units and they are great. The noise isn’t too bad. With the powerful collectors, you need really strong ducting. I have metal blast gates at each tool.

I have a young engineer friend who is putting a totally new shop. He’s going with the mobile Oneida unit after a lot of research. He’s buying a SawStop table saw so needs a large volume collector.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

The thing about large CFM systems is always going to be about noise. Even if it was possible to have absolutely no noise from the air itself coming back into the shop (or the motor) you will always hear the suction. This is impossible to eliminate. The higher CFM, the worse this gets.

I work in a huge shop, where the exhaust air goes outside over half of the year. The actual motor and bag system is all outside, but the intake sound is always there. The exhaust air does come back in during heating months to keep from blowing the heat out of the building faster than anything could ever heat it, or from sucking the windows in....lol

 

[Rob Z]

Good morning Jonny

I had a ClearVue in the last house/shop and have nothing but good things to say about it. The only "downside" is the assembly of all the components, assuming a buyer prefers to get the DC up and running quickly.  I sold it once we moved to a TH, and my shop size is so much smaller that a large unit like the CV with all the fixed ductwork just wouldn't make sense.

For the Oneida:  I have a Oneida Dust Cobra and use it mostly for DC on my table saw blade guard and also a small sander.  I know this isn't something that serves your needs but mention to say that the build quality is excellent and it's a typical Oneida product: solid, well-built, does what the company says it will do.

I have owned two Oneida Mini Gorillas and have the same thoughts as listed above for the Dust Cobra. Those aren't in the same league CFM-wise as what you're looking for, but they support my strong recommendation for Oneida as a company.

I now have the Oneida Supercell.  Typical Oneida quality.

So, my small point of view for you is that you won't go wrong choosing either the CV or an Oneida product that is sized to suit your requirements.

So I’m kinda between three company’s at the moment Oneida Air, ClearVue and Harvey. Any thoughts or experiences is appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

From what I remember about Bourbonmoth's video about the Harvey system, it is extremely expensive. I know that's rich coming from me, but still? Most guys wouldn't consider spending something like 8K (IIRC) for their entire shop full of tools, much less on dust collection alone.
I know that was the ductwork too and he went top-shelf there, but that's a lot more than the alternatives.

 

[JonnyBBravo]

Thank you to all who’ve responded or replied.
[member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member]
[member=6193]Rob Z[/member]
[member=15289]Birdhunter[/member]
[member=69245]Bernmc[/member]

I spoke with Oneida and laguna today. I’ll share responses below. An excuse any typos as I’ve written this on a cellphone. Anything you wish to share or add is appreciated.

I do know that marketing, big words and fancy use of words are used to sell things along with the psychological factor. Your presenting a problem and they are trying to tell you why there solution (product) is the or to run with. I am also not trying to get caught up in a bias approach opinion. The most difficult thing to all of the available materials have a black and white truthful approach. I understand brand loyalty, confidence in a product and all of this. Just hate dealing with sales people because they have a motive to get the sale (commission etc). I’m not knocking anyone either for getting sponsorships. My thing is just give me the facts and help woodworkers buy the best product for there needs. Clearly cost is a tier factor to this. An I do not mind spending the but I do not want a headache of maintenance, customer service issues. I just wanna make saw dust in the most safest plausible way. An to own a piece of equipment for many years. If it takes me a little longer to rub some Nickles together so be it. But I just wanna ensure that the information I’m sharing is helpful for all and the input for all has been awesome. So just understand I’m just trying to help myself and others with what all contributes to this post.

So I’ve talked to Oneida and yes they have a great customer service team. But also during the conversation they play on the psychological game of what you say. One thing I’ve also noticed is how much prices have jumped up on almost everything they have listed. I’ve discussed with them the supercell but in my opinion the real time CFM is not adequate (468 cfm if I am
Citing correctly). The V System looks promising but was told that unless you stick with 4-6” connections to the tool the CFM and WC is not adequate for anything small then a 4” connection. The gorilla pro can handle 2”-8” no problem but there’s a extra 1k plus accessories to consider so 4k plus.

As for my conversation with laguna. I’ll say that there customer service is defiantly needing a major renovation. The people were all nice but just some of the VM of the sales agent contradicted what the agent who transferred me. He was like if he doesn’t answer just leave a message. Then the VM says don’t leave a VM and email the sales agent whom I was being transferred too. Anyways laguna is about too launch three revised models. One being a single stage canister, CFLUX and PFLUX. Per the sales agent this was his opinion and advice. He said buy the new PFLUX; Buy the old CFLUX. He said the specs were not gonna change but that features were being changed. He said for example on the PFLUX an automatic filter cleaner is being added; a 3 sided canister instead of 5; a led light in the waste bin was being added; and the control box could be mounted on either side for shop configurations. He said they will launch in January 22 but probably wouldn’t ship till Feb-Apr 2022. Due to logistical costs, production and they are presently wrapping up the manuals, videos, and general testing to ensure the prototypes going to the market were up to snuff essentially. I didn’t really ask to many questions on the CFLUX model but that’s what he shared with me above and I just asked general questions about the single stage such as bag or filter. Just to gain an idea.

I’m not affiliated to any product or brand. I’m still digging in on what I wanna do but for right now looking at the gorilla pro model. Looking around for used collectors and tools in my area as well.

As for the Harvey my concern is that overtime with all debris going over the motor could be a potential issue. Yes I’m aware some out rare earth magnets in the ducting to remove any metals but aluminum will not stick and the discussions on sparks occurring a shop fire makes me wonder. By no means am I an expert on any of this. However a few engineers and respected wood workers in my area have shared this with me. Focus on a real time cfm of 1100 so no matter what you do or go you’ll always have the adequate amount of power and need for upgrades, expansions, and anything that could happen. Second was explaining how cyclone operation and the pros and cons of it all.
[scared]
My only question I’ve kinda ran across in all my reading is how the pleats inside filters could affect the filter materials. I did pose this question to Laguna and what he essentially shared was unless metal debris gets in that portion, you deliberately damage the filter, or some kind of crazy thing occurs you shouldn’t have a issue with the pleats ripping or damaging the filter.

Either way as I continue to dig deeper into this rabbit hole. I’m just trying to make the best sound decision and share with you all anything of great help. Yes I know I’m probably over doing this but it’s a pretty hefty investment into your own health and overall long term wood working journey whether a hobbyist or full time professional.

I plan to run a DC or DE with 240V I have 10 gauge wire for those plugs to up the amps to 30 without a problem. My ceiling height is 99” but I can notch out a box in my ceiling between joists if needed. But I’d be fine using a 35 gallon drum if I went with the gorilla pro I have enough clearance per Oneida for that.

Bourbon Moth spent 16k with duct work on his shop upgrade as I recall him saying. [eek] [scared]  [blink]

If you have input on the overall experience with your Supercell [member=6193]Rob Z[/member]. I think it’s honestly a cool little machine kinda like a larger version of a Dyson vacuum but more motors. But the CFM is what has me concerned.

Something else to consider is these machines do dissipate heat. So if you live in a hot area like me it’s something to factor in so if I recall Oneida said it’s essentially a 3600 watt space heater for the V3000.

So as it presently stands just asking questions and feeling this all out. Thank you to all again!

 

[Mini Me]

Thanks. Yes I’m aware you can use phase converters if you choose to go to a 3 phase unit. Currently wiring up here soon my shop an using 10gauge wiring for the 220V lines so the possibility to upgrade to 30amps is already there.

Presently I’m not sure the Harvey G700 is worth it’s value seeming how the impellers are getting the brunt over a cyclone. I’m just doing my research and trying to find a unit that has a high CFM in real time use which some specify like on Oneida air specs.

I appreciate the insights and feedback from you both.

Don't use a phase converter, the proper way to do it is a 240V Variable Frequency Drive. This converts single phase to 3 phase and allows speed control.

 

[JonnyBBravo]

Understood. I have a family member whom runs a phase converter for his cnc that requires 440v so he uses a phase converter to run this in his garage. He runs a manufacturing business that he owns. But this is what I was referring too. I do not believe I’ll be running anything 440V. But thanks for the feedback [member=58818]Mini Me[/member]

 

[Peter_C]

I kinda wanted a G700 for it's quietness, and the horizontal form is pretty close to what I did wind up buying a tall Jet 3HP shorty cyclone that takes up a massive amount of floor space. Only reason I got the Jet was cost, as I got a really really good deal on it minus the filter which would have been tossed by me anyway as I won't settle for less than a HEPA filtering down to .3 microns. I searched Craiglist for a long time and nothing used ever came up except those cheesy dust bag filters, sometimes with a cyclone attached inline.

Whatever direction you go I would highly recommend a HEPA filter. If one plans to vent outside who cares what brand you buy, just get the power you need, which will NOT include a Harbor Freight 2HP. After researching the heck out of filters, what I found is there isn't much information and there are few HEPA rated filters big enough for a 3HP dust collector. All HEPA filters are really expensive, but I choose Oneida for there written test results by a third party lab. I knew exactly what I was getting, plus they offer a silencer that fits inside the filter. Often the plenum to the filter is also fitted with sound deadening material like carpet even. Wynn filters are not HEPA. I also wouldn't hesitate to purchase an Oneida dust collector, along with Powermatic, Laguna, or even a Harvey. Harvey's are typically on sale, and right now the G700 is $2600 plus shipping. Clearvue's are super tall and won't fit all work areas, but are known for good dust separation because of their height. The shorty cyclones like Jet, Grizzly, etc, don't have as good of separation and tend to kick larger dust particles into the filter more.

If you plan to put it in your work area and want it quieter you can build a removable wall system or build in a closet to lessen the sound, just watch the temps, and be prepared to mix cool air inside. 

Edit: Also I purchased the 4" flex hosing needed for tool connection from Oneida as again I knew that I was getting quality material but at a higher cost which is probably a fair price for the quality I got.

 

[Mini Me]

I have to host a seminar on dust extraction tomorrow and during these seminars there are a couple of big points that are addressed.

Impeller size is more important than headline HP. A 15" impeller is needed and the HP to drive that. Driving a 14" impeller with a 5HP motor gets no more airflow that driving it with 3HP.

Use 6" ducting to the machine and modify the ports on the machine to accept it. 4" will only flow 750CFM at the static pressures a cyclone works at. 6" flows 1000CFM + at the same pressure.

Never ever believe the published flow figures, they are fantasy land stuff.

Always use 3 phase with a VFD. This a well proven idea over the last 10 years and simply works better. 

 

[JonnyBBravo]

[member=62526]Peter C[/member] thanks for the feedback. Yes I agree with you wholeheartedly on the HEPA thing which is why I was looking at the Pflux over the Cflux. But I kinda covered the new ones coming out. I’m looking at Oneida pretty strongly still. I came across this engineers YouTube channel . He plans to do a follow on video but I would say does a very good job presenting the information. I’m still looking at
The gorilla pro but I think it jumped $500 more since  [blink] the inflation and shipping costs of barges and what not. Example laguna told me they would pay $4000 for a container and now it’s low $22,000. So needless to say we’d the consumer are being hit with higher costs. I’m eager but also know just to take my time so I make the best decision that best suits me. But feedback is much appreciated and helps me a lot.

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member] thank you I for the insight. Do you have personal experiences with a specific brad or product that you presently use in your own shop?

I will say I am eager given the slight or supposed discounts on equipment sales and such. But I will either continue searching my local offerings (offerup, etc) and online forums and sales sights to see if something very much makes me commit to a purchase. I was told by Oneida they don’t really do sales offer but the 10% off from woodcraft that recently passed by is the closest thing they do. Just that our new woodcraft is still trying to get all of there store supplies as they are sitting in a train freight yard. An they are unable to get to it immediately.

 

[squall_line]

But I kinda covered the new ones coming out. I’m looking at Oneida pretty strongly still. I came across this engineers YouTube channel . He plans to do a follow on video but I would say does a

Just a heads-up, since I saw it on this and a few other threads, but to post a YouTube video for the non-mobile folks to see, you need to use the youtube.com URL, not the youtu.be URL.