Is Festool Home Office In Touch with real woodworkers?

[gpmcginn]

To the Festool Home Office if they care:
As a long term serious woodworker I’ve bought the following items in the last 15 years that have all exceeded my expectations and is why I’ve recommended Festool in the past to all serious woodworkers but may not in the future.
- A ATF55E saw with a CT22E, plus FS 1400/2 and a FS 1080/2 guides in 2002,
- Rotex RO 125 in Feb 2005 – used for sanding and polishing my glass panels
- Router OF 1400 EQ  in Feb 2005 – used for one $3K job but not used much since
- Cordless Drill (C12) – used so much I’m amazed it still is in great shape.
- Replacement blades for the ATF55E
- Sanding pads for the RO 125
- Batteries (2) for the C12
- And other less expensive items like claps and cut guides for the FS guides, replacement bags for the CT22E, and wool pads for the RO 125 to polish glass, and so on.

So my estimate is the last 15 years I bought over $5,000 on Festool units and replacement items with excellent satisfaction.

But this June 2017 I purchased a Festool Trion PSB 300 EQ Jigsaw with attachments including the Circle cutter. 

The total cost was well over $300. The use was to cut circular blanks for turntables in woods like Bubinga, Zebrawood, Lacewood, etc. at a thickness of ¾”. Well I purchased the two blades “recommended” on the Festool site for the Circle cutter. As a woodworker that doesn’t want to waste wood I used the narrower blade first. Well, about 3 inches on the 14” circle the Jigsaw started to throw sparks. The blade had bent badly and was eating up the blade guides!

I then had an online “chat” with a Festool tech (he was very helpful as to info about the saw that is NOT in the documentation).  I said: "OK – but there was NO indication in the Festool documentation about this".

Since then I’ve tried to cut smaller circles, in the 6” range, and even the thicker blades fails before a full circle is cut, and YES with sparks as it bends and hits the side supports!  So I could say with confidence as an experienced woodwoorker on tight cuts on really hard wood with the recommended blade this Jigsaw is not worth a piece of S___!

NET: Is anyone listening in Festool ‘s Home Office with a statement like the one on page 61 of the 2017 Catalogue – “Versatility.unmatched.  The blade finally met its match” . As an experienced woodworker I’d say the PSB 300 EQ does not cut it for real hardwoods. It may be great for ½” ply or soft woods BUT don’t over sell it as something that cuts real hardwoods.

So as a serious woodworker I’d not recommend the PSB300 to any real woodworker unless they plan to use it for cutting thin stock or ply at ½” with the Circle Cutter. 

An this point I plan to ask for full refund from my long term supplies (McFeely’s) based on a description of produce not meeting its specs.
George McGinn

PS I did send some of this Info via a Festool feedback form a few days ago but got no response. It was about the Circle cutter having an alignment issue and is related to a wrong angle leading to "burned" cuts and potential heat on the blade. I have not heard back. I guess they don't give much value to long term users. So I'll be looking for another company for my next tool purchase. It's the usual, get known as great, let things slip but make money, and then go out of business after 10 years. 

 

[Woodwork Wizard]

The Mafell P1cc cuts perfectly without sparks or bending blades as there's no blade guide and it comes with a circle cutter, in a Systainer and the 27mm DE hose will fit it.

 

[HarveyWildes]

The Mafell P1cc cuts perfectly without sparks or bending blades as there's no blade guide and it comes with a circle cutter, in a Systainer and the 27mm DE hose will fit it.

A Laguna 14bx with a circle cutting jig (home made or aftermarket) will do the same thing accurately and quickly for about the same price as the Mafell, although the 27mm DE hose won't fit it .  I've got the Laguna 14/12, which is less expensive (you could get it and a new Festool jigsaw for the price of the Mafell) with a few less features, and it performs very nicely wired for 110 - I've done circles as large as 2 ft in diameter and re-sawn hardwood up to nearly it's full capacity.  Of course you can't just move it to a job site (no systainer included), but I'm guessing that you cut your circles in a shop - true?

 

[Holmz]

The Mafell P1cc cuts perfectly without sparks or bending blades as there's no blade guide and it comes with a circle cutter, in a Systainer and the 27mm DE hose will fit it.

Even better with their wide blades.

But [member=61231]HarveyWildes[/member] has a very good point.
Ideally you know someone that has a bandsaw which could get some occasional guest use...

 

[antss]

The Mafell P1cc cuts perfectly without sparks or bending blades as there's no blade guide and it comes with a circle cutter, in a Systainer and the 27mm DE hose will fit it.

A Laguna 14bx with a circle cutting jig (home made or aftermarket) will do the same thing accurately and quickly for about the same price as the Mafell, although the 27mm DE hose won't fit it .  I've got the Laguna 14/12, which is less expensive (you could get it and a new Festool jigsaw for the price of the Mafell) with a few less features, and it performs very nicely wired for 110 - I've done circles as large as 2 ft in diameter and re-sawn hardwood up to nearly it's full capacity.  Of course you can't just move it to a job site (no systainer included), but I'm guessing that you cut your circles in a shop - true?

I don't think this is quite accurate.

A mafell jigs saw is $900 delivered with the opt. angle shoe accessory.

A 14/12 is going to cost $1100 plus delivery and tax and then you'll still have to purchase a blade to use it.  So roughly $1300.  The 14bx is going to run $350 more than that.

Now , I'd favor a bandsaw over even the mafell for circular blanks like gpm is making; but the laguna examples aren't a cheaper option.  Better and more versatile , yes.

 

[ScotF]

The Mafell P1cc cuts perfectly without sparks or bending blades as there's no blade guide and it comes with a circle cutter, in a Systainer and the 27mm DE hose will fit it.

A Laguna 14bx with a circle cutting jig (home made or aftermarket) will do the same thing accurately and quickly for about the same price as the Mafell, although the 27mm DE hose won't fit it .  I've got the Laguna 14/12, which is less expensive (you could get it and a new Festool jigsaw for the price of the Mafell) with a few less features, and it performs very nicely wired for 110 - I've done circles as large as 2 ft in diameter and re-sawn hardwood up to nearly it's full capacity.  Of course you can't just move it to a job site (no systainer included), but I'm guessing that you cut your circles in a shop - true?

I don't think this is quite accurate.

A mafell jigs saw is $900 delivered with the opt. angle shoe accessory.

A 14/12 is going to cost $1100 plus delivery and tax and then you'll still have to purchase a blade to use it.  So roughly $1300.  The 14bx is going to run $350 more than that.

Now , I'd favor a bandsaw over even the mafell for circular blanks like gpm is making; but the laguna examples aren't a cheaper option.  Better and more versatile , yes.

And sometimes you need to bring the tool to the work and a bandsaw would not work.

 

[HarveyWildes]

The Mafell P1cc cuts perfectly without sparks or bending blades as there's no blade guide and it comes with a circle cutter, in a Systainer and the 27mm DE hose will fit it.

A Laguna 14bx with a circle cutting jig (home made or aftermarket) will do the same thing accurately and quickly for about the same price as the Mafell, although the 27mm DE hose won't fit it .  I've got the Laguna 14/12, which is less expensive (you could get it and a new Festool jigsaw for the price of the Mafell) with a few less features, and it performs very nicely wired for 110 - I've done circles as large as 2 ft in diameter and re-sawn hardwood up to nearly it's full capacity.  Of course you can't just move it to a job site (no systainer included), but I'm guessing that you cut your circles in a shop - true?

I don't think this is quite accurate.

A mafell jigs saw is $900 delivered with the opt. angle shoe accessory.

A 14/12 is going to cost $1100 plus delivery and tax and then you'll still have to purchase a blade to use it.  So roughly $1300.  The 14bx is going to run $350 more than that.

Now , I'd favor a bandsaw over even the mafell for circular blanks like gpm is making; but the laguna examples aren't a cheaper option.  Better and more versatile , yes.

I was going from the Amazon price on the Mafell - ~$1350 at the time, now ~$1800, rather than the ToolNut price of $765 (nice work, [member=48572]Shane Holland[/member]).  My bad for trusting Amazon to at least be in the low price ball park.

Woodcraft has Laguna on sale for 10% off frequently, so I was working of those prices.

 

[Cheese]

I was going from the Amazon price on the Mafell - ~$1350 at the time, now ~$1800, rather than the ToolNut price of $765...

That's exactly the reason Amazon has gone from 1st on my list to last on my list.  [mad] 

It seems they only thing they want to do is sell you their Prime Package.

 

[ewils91]

I was going from the Amazon price on the Mafell - ~$1350 at the time, now ~$1800, rather than the ToolNut price of $765...

That's exactly the reason Amazon has gone from 1st on my list to last on my list.  [mad] 

It seems they only thing they want to do is sell you their Prime Package.

I agree, I was just thinking that this morning. Then again once everyone is Prime, is anyone Prime?

 

[semenza]

I was going from the Amazon price on the Mafell - ~$1350 at the time, now ~$1800, rather than the ToolNut price of $765...

That's exactly the reason Amazon has gone from 1st on my list to last on my list.  [mad] 

It seems they only thing they want to do is sell you their Prime Package.

I agree, I was just thinking that this morning. Then again once everyone is Prime, is anyone Prime?

When 90% are Prime there will be  Prime Plus offering  [wink]

Seth

 

[Cheese]

When 90% are Prime there will be  Prime Plus offering  [wink]

Errrrrrr...that would be Prime Platinum. [huh]

 

[antss]

Amazon is like every other vendor. They are out make a profit.  And they want to do so on an enormous scale.

I don't think they claim to have or show the lowest price of an item.  This is especially true if they are not the actual seller of the item you're looking to buy. Their vendors/partners game the system to have their stuff show up first and lowest price is not the only criteria.

At any rate, if I'm price shopping, I don't implicitly trust Amazon to have the lowest price any more than I trust the BORG to be lower than the mom and pop. Nor do I trust the Internet in general to be lower than locally bought.  All of these avenues work for me a one time or another, and I wouldn't want to be without access to any of them.

I am a prime member and feel it's worth the $100/yr.  That's really because the family utilizes the video/tv component at home and while traveling.  If I were simply looking at it as a prepaid fast shipping option , I doubt I'd break even on it.  I will say thou, tapping a few buttons on a tablet at breakfast, then having paper towels show up after lunch at the doorstep is kinda novel.

Some people think of it like a wholesale club such as Sam's or Costco.  And those places are often more expensive on paper towels.

 

[ewils91]

My wife used to work part time for the Orange Borg. They closed the store because they had 3 years with a profit of only $9,000,000 and it wasn't enough to justify keeping it open. According to their management... [eek]

 

[yetihunter]

I lost track of what this thread was about.

 

[nickao]

Here is an old post might be helpful with the circle jig, though this post is geared for the carvex:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/carvex-ps400-cutting-circle-jig-de-mystified/

To the Festool Home Office if they care:
As a long term serious woodworker I’ve bought the following items in the last 15 years that have all exceeded my expectations and is why I’ve recommended Festool in the past to all serious woodworkers but may not in the future.
- A ATF55E saw with a CT22E, plus FS 1400/2 and a FS 1080/2 guides in 2002,
- Rotex RO 125 in Feb 2005 – used for sanding and polishing my glass panels
- Router OF 1400 EQ  in Feb 2005 – used for one $3K job but not used much since
- Cordless Drill (C12) – used so much I’m amazed it still is in great shape.
- Replacement blades for the ATF55E
- Sanding pads for the RO 125
- Batteries (2) for the C12
- And other less expensive items like claps and cut guides for the FS guides, replacement bags for the CT22E, and wool pads for the RO 125 to polish glass, and so on.

So my estimate is the last 15 years I bought over $5,000 on Festool units and replacement items with excellent satisfaction.

But this June 2017 I purchased a Festool Trion PSB 300 EQ Jigsaw with attachments including the Circle cutter. 

The total cost was well over $300. The use was to cut circular blanks for turntables in woods like Bubinga, Zebrawood, Lacewood, etc. at a thickness of ¾”. Well I purchased the two blades “recommended” on the Festool site for the Circle cutter. As a woodworker that doesn’t want to waste wood I used the narrower blade first. Well, about 3 inches on the 14” circle the Jigsaw started to throw sparks. The blade had bent badly and was eating up the blade guides!

I then had an online “chat” with a Festool tech (he was very helpful as to info about the saw that is NOT in the documentation).  I said: "OK – but there was NO indication in the Festool documentation about this".

Since then I’ve tried to cut smaller circles, in the 6” range, and even the thicker blades fails before a full circle is cut, and YES with sparks as it bends and hits the side supports!  So I could say with confidence as an experienced woodwoorker on tight cuts on really hard wood with the recommended blade this Jigsaw is not worth a piece of S___!

NET: Is anyone listening in Festool ‘s Home Office with a statement like the one on page 61 of the 2017 Catalogue – “Versatility.unmatched.  The blade finally met its match” . As an experienced woodworker I’d say the PSB 300 EQ does not cut it for real hardwoods. It may be great for ½” ply or soft woods BUT don’t over sell it as something that cuts real hardwoods.

So as a serious woodworker I’d not recommend the PSB300 to any real woodworker unless they plan to use it for cutting thin stock or ply at ½” with the Circle Cutter. 

An this point I plan to ask for full refund from my long term supplies (McFeely’s) based on a description of produce not meeting its specs.
George McGinn

PS I did send some of this Info via a Festool feedback form a few days ago but got no response. It was about the Circle cutter having an alignment issue and is related to a wrong angle leading to "burned" cuts and potential heat on the blade. I have not heard back. I guess they don't give much value to long term users. So I'll be looking for another company for my next tool purchase. It's the usual, get known as great, let things slip but make money, and then go out of business after 10 years. 

The Trion isn't a good jig saw. If you came to the forum most of us would of steered you to a Bosch or Mafell.
The circle cutter isn't any good either, I took one look at it and wouldn't dream of using it for plywood let alone exotics. I get your frustration, listing your tool and what you spent has no bearing though, what about the guys that spent 50K, should they get better service?

Festool does listen and try to be in touch more than most any other company, tool or otherwise, I know of. They did come out with a new Carvex jigsaw, I called it a fail but they did listen to the guys that wanted a better jigsaw. And I do see Festool continuously improving stuff, some things faster than other of course(think rail end), like the pads, they improved them at least 2 times I can think of in the last several years. Plus, they took over this forum from Mathew so they could monitor things and give like woodworkers that use their tools a way to interface. They run  many workshops where they talk to real woodworkers as well, so I think they are in touch as much as a large company like this can be.

Now for cutting circles, I personally don't use a jigsaw for anything but rougher work, plywood mostly. I use a router for circles and if I need perfect sizing I'll attach a MicroFence circle jig or something similar. If I had a Mafell jig saw I wouldn't use it to cut a circles in an exotic if that circle needed to be perfect either. And even if I attached my jig saw to the MicroFence circle jig somehow a router just cuts circles better.  A router bit produces a better finish cut on exotics(and ply too) than a jigsaw blade.  I am not saying cutting nice circles can't be done using a jigsaw, but making circles everyday I find the router just the better tool for circle work, FOR ME.

Though I agree the Festool jigsaw  and circle guide you used aren't very good  the tools you chose from the start  may not the best choice, IMHO.

On another note, Amazon is the best thing ever. If people don't understand to simply wait for the price to drop that's on them. Amazon isn't always the best price, sometimes it's far more expensive, it''s all an algorithm.  The pricing changes wildly on some items. If you wait more times than not Amazon will be the best price, sometimes it never is. It's like getting an airline ticket or rental car, the price changes on the fly, sometimes by the minute, most commonly once or twice a day.

 

[Nat X]

Put that unused 1400 on a trammel if you want to cut circles in dense woods reliably. The Mafell would certainly not have sparked in that situation, but it still would have been a bad choice.