Is the Felder Format worth the upgrade?

[online421]

I went to my local Felder agent this afternoon (they are truely local, 2.7km from where I live!)

I was going to put down a deposit on a F900Z, fully spec'ed with feeders and tenoning jigs, The cost is $21000 NZD + gst ($16800 USD after tax @ exchange rate of 0.68).

Just as I was about to pull out my wallet, the sales paused a bit and asked, Are you interested in a Format Profil X motion? its only fractional more than the F900Z

It turns out the Format Profil 45 Z Xmotion (what a mouthful, its the one with upper control panel) can be had for $20,000 USD, fully spec'ed, its $3200 USD more than the F900Z. this is mostly due to the F900Z is not on the promotion list.  FYI, The F700Z is $10000 USD here.  Half price of the Format.

what will I do with the spindle moulder? I will do mostly tenons, I need a reliable spindle moulder for tenonning, but I would like to explore possibilities of wood working in a spindle moulder, I dont want to own a machine for 3 years and find out that I am limited by the current machine and I have to upgrade. I currently do the tenons on my Robland combination machine and its a $%^$%#$@ to setup.

What are your thoughts? should I settle with F700Z? F900Z? or the Format? the F700Z is affordable in comparison, $20k on a spindle moulder? hmm.... I had a look at SCM, I like their machines, but the one I want, TI145, electronic control, with table on the side for tenon: $31,000 USD!! (after tax)

 

[junk731]

The Felders are somewhat like Festool you get a good return on your dollar if you have to sell and upgrade. At your age the addition of a computer to help with running the machine might be a big bonus. Personally as I said in previous posts I'm more of a minimalist. It again depends on how deep your pockets are, and how much you really need. Personally if I had a lot of excess cash I would be looking at Martin, right now the Felders I have let me do whatever I need to do. One option not to leave off whatever you decide is the Aigner fences.

John

 

[Kev]

More of a general thought on this .. high end machinery is evolving all the time. You can always sell a good machine and upgrade. If you try to buy every feature possible available now you may be disappointed next year when something even better comes out. Is the 700 less than you believe you'll need over the next ~3 years?

 

[stvrowe]

I went to a Felder open house last fall and ordered a Format 4 Xmotion.  It was delivered in early February.  It reduces setup time considerably and gives you the ability to store your settings for multiple tools and gives superb repeatability.  IMHO, if you change setups frequently, it is a no-brainer.  If you don't change setups that often (or ever) it probably is not worth the difference.  If you were able to see the machine first hand, I think your questions of worth would be quickly answered.  That is what sold me on the upgrade and I don't think I would have seen the benefits without seeing the machine first hand.

My dream machine is still a Martin T27 but at less than 1/3 the cost, the Format 4 is a relative bargain if you have need of such features.

I ordered mine with the 10 HP motor, Aigner Integral Fence, power feeder swing away arm, power feeder outlet with delayed start, Aigner Bowmoldmaster, and eccentric clamp.  I had Felder drill and tap the table to mount the bowmold.  Hindsight is 20/20 and my only regret is spending the $ on the power feeder outlet and the eccentric clamp.  The delayed power feeder start is not conducive to checking power feeder setup.  A plastic curved molding hood was included and I did not know that at the time of purchase - it is OK but not near the quality of the Aigner bowmold. 

The table comes pre-drilled and tapped to mount a power feeder but this is pretty useless on the x-motion due to the fence design.  Your power feeder post will prevent the fence from tilting up when you want it out of the way.  Because of this, the swing away power feeder mount is a must have on this machine if you intend on using a power feeder.  Be sure you work this into your cost.  In the video below you can see the tapped holes for the power feeder mount.  The fence system is hinged to swing out of the way and the interference should be obvious.

Format 4 X-motion

I hope this helps.  Let me know if you have any more questions.  I can't promise I know the answer but I will try.
Steve

 

[junk731]

More of a general thought on this .. high end machinery is evolving all the time. You can always sell a good machine and upgrade. If you try to buy every feature possible available now you may be disappointed next year when something even better comes out. Is the 700 less than you believe you'll need over the next ~3 years?

Like I said I've had my Shaper since early 2011, my work is generally custom everything so repeat setups aren't really in my world. I can see the Format that Steve's talking about if you were doing complex setups like custom windows but for me the Powerdrive spindle height and the screw type micro adjust are all I need. That system has been on the J/P and shapers for along time. Since I owned Felder stuff I've seen that overhead computer stuff changed several times on the saws and shapers. The honest truth for me is though it would be nice in some respects to say I have Format stuff it really wouldn't make any difference in the quality I produce or shorten my day in any way over what I have. I only thing it would do is take money anyway from other parts of the shop I would like to upgrade. So to answer your question I don't forsee any need for another shaper in the future thats of course barring a major lottery win, then its sell the Felder stuff and get  Martin stuff.
The mantle in the following pics was the first project I did with my then new F700Z. Its 4" hard maple 120" long. It took 3 passes to complete the curves and 60 degree bevel. Done with a 100mm x 100mm spiral insert cutter head.

 

[online421]

More of a general thought on this .. high end machinery is evolving all the time. You can always sell a good machine and upgrade. If you try to buy every feature possible available now you may be disappointed next year when something even better comes out. Is the 700 less than you believe you'll need over the next ~3 years?

Thanks Kev. that is a valid point

 

[online421]

I went to a Felder open house last fall and ordered a Format 4 Xmotion.  It was delivered in early February.  It reduces setup time considerably and gives you the ability to store your settings for multiple tools and gives superb repeatability.  IMHO, if you change setups frequently, it is a no-brainer.  If you don't change setups that often (or ever) it probably is not worth the difference.  If you were able to see the machine first hand, I think your questions of worth would be quickly answered.  That is what sold me on the upgrade and I don't think I would have seen the benefits without seeing the machine first hand.

My dream machine is still a Martin T27 but at less than 1/3 the cost, the Format 4 is a relative bargain if you have need of such features.

I ordered mine with the 10 HP motor, Aigner Integral Fence, power feeder swing away arm, power feeder outlet with delayed start, Aigner Bowmoldmaster, and eccentric clamp.  I had Felder drill and tap the table to mount the bowmold.  Hindsight is 20/20 and my only regret is spending the $ on the power feeder outlet and the eccentric clamp.  The delayed power feeder start is not conducive to checking power feeder setup.  A plastic curved molding hood was included and I did not know that at the time of purchase - it is OK but not near the quality of the Aigner bowmold. 

The table comes pre-drilled and tapped to mount a power feeder but this is pretty useless on the x-motion due to the fence design.  Your power feeder post will prevent the fence from tilting up when you want it out of the way.  Because of this, the swing away power feeder mount is a must have on this machine if you intend on using a power feeder.  Be sure you work this into your cost.  In the video below you can see the tapped holes for the power feeder mount.  The fence system is hinged to swing out of the way and the interference should be obvious.

Format 4 X-motion

I hope this helps.  Let me know if you have any more questions.  I can't promise I know the answer but I will try.
Steve

Thanks Steve for the detailed input.

the agent has a Format Kappa saw on display, its very nice.

I've asked myself what do I really need and what can I live with/without, because to have a SM that will do everything, I probably wont be able to afford it or have features that I probably will never need, such as - tilting spindle, do I really need it? I know I wont know until I try.  But looking at my line of work and asking myself, am I creative enough to use the tilting feature? probably not.

So what do I really need? I need the tenoning table on the side rather than the front, this is more versatile than the sliding table at the front, unfortunately there isnt a lot of used spindle moulder in New Zealand and having a side tenoning table.... good luck with that, therefore I have to buy new. this picture below is a SCM TF130,

[attachimg=1]

I am going to SCM next Tuesday to have a look at SCM spindle moulder T55W elite. just to get a feel of what SCM offers.

I like the Format, will need to think this through. The fully spec'ed Format 4 is roughly the same price as a standard manual SCM TF130 with heavy duty tenoning table on the side.

Thanks again.

 

[online421]

More of a general thought on this .. high end machinery is evolving all the time. You can always sell a good machine and upgrade. If you try to buy every feature possible available now you may be disappointed next year when something even better comes out. Is the 700 less than you believe you'll need over the next ~3 years?

Like I said I've had my Shaper since early 2011, my work is generally custom everything so repeat setups aren't really in my world. I can see the Format that Steve's talking about if you were doing complex setups like custom windows but for me the Powerdrive spindle height and the screw type micro adjust are all I need. That system has been on the J/P and shapers for along time. Since I owned Felder stuff I've seen that overhead computer stuff changed several times on the saws and shapers. The honest truth for me is though it would be nice in some respects to say I have Format stuff it really wouldn't make any difference in the quality I produce or shorten my day in any way over what I have. I only thing it would do is take money anyway from other parts of the shop I would like to upgrade. So to answer your question I don't forsee any need for another shaper in the future thats of course barring a major lottery win, then its sell the Felder stuff and get  Martin stuff.
The mantle in the following pics was the first project I did with my then new F700Z. Its 4" hard maple 120" long. It took 3 passes to complete the curves and 60 degree bevel. Done with a 100mm x 100mm spiral insert cutter head.

This was lingering in the back of my mind as well.

Thats a very nice mantle, what finish did you use? lacquer? or polyurethane?

 

[online421]

I went to a Felder open house last fall and ordered a Format 4 Xmotion.  It was delivered in early February.  It reduces setup time considerably and gives you the ability to store your settings for multiple tools and gives superb repeatability.  IMHO, if you change setups frequently, it is a no-brainer.  If you don't change setups that often (or ever) it probably is not worth the difference.  If you were able to see the machine first hand, I think your questions of worth would be quickly answered.  That is what sold me on the upgrade and I don't think I would have seen the benefits without seeing the machine first hand.

My dream machine is still a Martin T27 but at less than 1/3 the cost, the Format 4 is a relative bargain if you have need of such features.

I ordered mine with the 10 HP motor, Aigner Integral Fence, power feeder swing away arm, power feeder outlet with delayed start, Aigner Bowmoldmaster, and eccentric clamp.  I had Felder drill and tap the table to mount the bowmold.  Hindsight is 20/20 and my only regret is spending the $ on the power feeder outlet and the eccentric clamp.  The delayed power feeder start is not conducive to checking power feeder setup.  A plastic curved molding hood was included and I did not know that at the time of purchase - it is OK but not near the quality of the Aigner bowmold. 

The table comes pre-drilled and tapped to mount a power feeder but this is pretty useless on the x-motion due to the fence design.  Your power feeder post will prevent the fence from tilting up when you want it out of the way.  Because of this, the swing away power feeder mount is a must have on this machine if you intend on using a power feeder.  Be sure you work this into your cost.  In the video below you can see the tapped holes for the power feeder mount.  The fence system is hinged to swing out of the way and the interference should be obvious.

Format 4 X-motion

I hope this helps.  Let me know if you have any more questions.  I can't promise I know the answer but I will try.
Steve

Steve do you have any issues with your Format so far? Did you look at what SCM has to offer at the time? I wonder if SCM will out last Felder in terms of longevity? probably a silly question.

 

[junk731]

Forward titling spindle no, rearward yes, safety first but until you use its hard to understand. Got the brush off from SCM in my area, too small and no sales people wanted to talk at the shows if you were a one person shop. I wouldn't give them the sweat off my bag. Felder was the only company that wanted my money in 2007. I have a long memory and bought 8 Felder machines since 2007. Let us know how they treat a hobbyist in NZ.

John

 

[stvrowe]

I went to a Felder open house last fall and ordered a Format 4 Xmotion.  It was delivered in early February.  It reduces setup time considerably and gives you the ability to store your settings for multiple tools and gives superb repeatability.  IMHO, if you change setups frequently, it is a no-brainer.  If you don't change setups that often (or ever) it probably is not worth the difference.  If you were able to see the machine first hand, I think your questions of worth would be quickly answered.  That is what sold me on the upgrade and I don't think I would have seen the benefits without seeing the machine first hand.

My dream machine is still a Martin T27 but at less than 1/3 the cost, the Format 4 is a relative bargain if you have need of such features.

I ordered mine with the 10 HP motor, Aigner Integral Fence, power feeder swing away arm, power feeder outlet with delayed start, Aigner Bowmoldmaster, and eccentric clamp.  I had Felder drill and tap the table to mount the bowmold.  Hindsight is 20/20 and my only regret is spending the $ on the power feeder outlet and the eccentric clamp.  The delayed power feeder start is not conducive to checking power feeder setup.  A plastic curved molding hood was included and I did not know that at the time of purchase - it is OK but not near the quality of the Aigner bowmold. 

The table comes pre-drilled and tapped to mount a power feeder but this is pretty useless on the x-motion due to the fence design.  Your power feeder post will prevent the fence from tilting up when you want it out of the way.  Because of this, the swing away power feeder mount is a must have on this machine if you intend on using a power feeder.  Be sure you work this into your cost.  In the video below you can see the tapped holes for the power feeder mount.  The fence system is hinged to swing out of the way and the interference should be obvious.

Format 4 X-motion

I hope this helps.  Let me know if you have any more questions.  I can't promise I know the answer but I will try.
Steve

Steve do you have any issues with your Format so far? Did you look at what SCM has to offer at the time? I wonder if SCM will out last Felder in terms of longevity? probably a silly question.

No issues so far but have only had it about 4 months.  I don't expect any based on my experience with other Felder machines.  FWIW, the upgrade to the Format was from an SCMI T55I (Minimax) machine. 

 

[online421]

a quick update

I have put a deposit down on a F700z. this is my first spindle moulder and I dont want to spend too much. the F700z will arrive in November.

I may also go ahead with the AD951 and K940S they offered at a good price. triple machines for $38k USD delivered, installed and calibrated.

 

[Kev]

a quick update

I have put a deposit down on a F700z. this is my first spindle moulder and I dont want to spend too much. the F700z will arrive in November.

I may also go ahead with the AD951 and K940S they offered at a good price. triple machines for $38k USD delivered, installed and calibrated.

[member=60639]online421[/member] within reason and if space and money were flexible, I think I'd consider separate machines A951 and D951 .. It probably comes down to what your raw materials are and how frequently you'd switch between modes.

 

[online421]

True. But space is limited and I am already stretching... I was going to go Jointer/planer and saw/spindle moulder combo, but realised the saw/spindle combo is not suitable for what I do...

 

[Kev]

True. But space is limited and I am already stretching... I was going to go Jointer/planer and saw/spindle moulder combo, but realised the saw/spindle combo is not suitable for what I do...

[member=60639]online421[/member] ah yes, space [sad]

I can't even fit a bandsaw in at the moment.

 

[online421]

True. But space is limited and I am already stretching... I was going to go Jointer/planer and saw/spindle moulder combo, but realised the saw/spindle combo is not suitable for what I do...

[member=60639]online421[/member] ah yes, space [sad]

I can't even fit a bandsaw in at the moment.

I am already have to use shipping container to store my timber....

this one is 4m long x 2m wide x 2 m high

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[OssieGT]

Nice storage you've got there ... jealous  [big grin]

That's a serious lot of french cleats you've got in there  [wink]

 

[online421]

Nice storage you've got there ... jealous  [big grin]

That's a serious lot of french cleats you've got in there  [wink]

Thanks mate, but I dont use them as French cleat... lol

these storage are demountable, they come in pack of flats, take about 2-4 hours to assemble, made in Czech