Kapex Database

[jimbouk]

Hi
Just to put you at ease and I am sure you expected this - no information would ever be in the public domain.
rg
Phil

Unless you count the contents of the industrial sized waste bin in Saxham.

 

[peter halle]

I suspect that the crux of Phil's comment was something along the lines of "Don't worry about how to present the data because Festool is not going to share those numbers out in public."

Peter

 

[Rob in Vancouver]

I suspect that the crux of Phil's comment was something along the lines of "Don't worry about how to present the data because Festool is not going to share those numbers out in public."

Peter

Well,  in my opinion,  Festool should provide consumers with full disclosure on the track record of its motor failure rates.
But that's just me.

 

[peter halle]

I suspect that the crux of Phil's comment was something along the lines of "Don't worry about how to present the data because Festool is not going to share those numbers out in public."

Peter

Well,  in my opinion,  Festool should provide consumers with full disclosure on the track record of its motor failure rates.
But that's just me.

There is not a company with competent leadership in the world who would post information that would be considered proprietary, confidential, internal, or otherwise on the internet.  For years here Members have been asking why things are NAINA for example.  The answer has been that Festool does not discuss their marketing strategies in public.  Same thing with this information.

Peter

 

[Jamestoolie]

I suspect that the crux of Phil's comment was something along the lines of "Don't worry about how to present the data because Festool is not going to share those numbers out in public."

Peter

Well,  in my opinion,  Festool should provide consumers with full disclosure on the track record of its motor failure rates.
But that's just me.

There is not a company with competent leadership in the world who would post information that would be considered proprietary, confidential, internal, or otherwise on the internet.  For years here Members have been asking why things are NAINA for example.  The answer has been that Festool does not discuss their marketing strategies in public.  Same thing with this information.

Peter

That makes sense.  If my vehicle breaks down repeatedly i am not at Ford's door demanding statistic data from them.  I get it fixed and then buy a different brand. 

 

[AlexThePalex]

Well,  in my opinion,  Festool should provide consumers with full disclosure on the track record of its motor failure rates.

I wish there was a world where all information was publicly available. But it's not going to happen anytime soon. Disclosing such information can open a whole lot of legal troubles for a company so you can figure why they don't.

So there's a bit of a lynch mob mentality going on here right now. I guess disgruntled Kapex owners are entitled to a bit of venting.

But I bet that if people knew the real failure rates, they'd be disappointed because it would be a realy small number, and nothing dramatic at all. No grounds at all for a mass recall or class action.

Also funny how people jump on the bandwagon while they don't even have a Kapex or have one that's working just fine.

 

[bobfog]

I suspect that the crux of Phil's comment was something along the lines of "Don't worry about how to present the data because Festool is not going to share those numbers out in public."

Peter

Well,  in my opinion,  Festool should provide consumers with full disclosure on the track record of its motor failure rates.
But that's just me.

There is not a company with competent leadership in the world who would post information that would be considered proprietary, confidential, internal, or otherwise on the internet.  For years here Members have been asking why things are NAINA for example.  The answer has been that Festool does not discuss their marketing strategies in public.  Same thing with this information.

Peter

There are companies that release such data. The vital point is, companies only voluntarily release such information if it is positive and doesn't have a negative affect or confirm suspicions of customers with regards to poor quality control, etc.

I am a bit of a car enthusiast and amateur racer. Honda, a number of years back, were being accused of having build quality issues with their engines from people who tuned/modified their engines. The people whose cars broke down argued that even though they had modified the cars, this was not directly responsible for the failure and the modified aspect was being used as a scapegoat to get out of warranty claims. Honda responded by releasing internal data to prove they'd not had a single catastrophic failure of a non-modified VTEC unit during warranty period in over one million units made. This silenced the critics.

A similar sort of scenario to the Kapex, is/was the VW diesel emissions scandal. For years and years people in the know have been saying/questioning that VW diesel engines put out more BHP than the specs said and it made no sense that they could over-spec the power yet keep the CO2 figures so low, and we all know how that story ends.

So the point I'm making is companies will or won't release data, dependent on if they think it helps their cause.

Now, what I think gets up the noses of members here is that we all "know" (not for a fact but on the balance of probabilities) that the Kapex does have more problems than its stablemates and more problems than the premium price tag should allow. What makes it even worse then is that rather than simply saying we won't release such data because we don't want to, we get things like "There is not a company with competent leadership in the world who would post information that would be considered proprietary, confidential, internal, or otherwise on the internet., and as per my example above, that's not accurate and we're made to feel like Festool and its representatives take us for fools.

To try to turn post into a positive, the reason people get so hot under the collar isn't because of "mob mentality" or jumping on the band wagon, but because we like the Kapex and want the issues sorted. Either because we own one and want some peace of mind in the way of Festool admitting there's been some excessive failures and the motor warranty given an extended period. Or, in my case, wanting to buy a Kapex for the quality of the cuts it can produce, but not being able to financially take such a potentially expensive gamble of it failing just out of warranty. It's not unreasonable for one to expect a £900 tool to last 10 years without feeling anxious about it.

Festool should either release the exact figures to prove us all wrong, and demonstrate that the forum complaints are an exaggerated storm in a tea cup compared to the wider perspective; or admit there's a problem and tackle it in an honest and upstanding manner.

Now, as to a point you raised earlier. This isn't a post intended to get at you or diminish the work you've put in over the last 5 years. You have to appreciate this is 2016, the era where somebody can be in Walmart/Costco and Tweet a complaint that there's not enough staff on the tills and within a matter of minutes someone at head office has rang through to chastise the manager to get more staff on the checkout and Tweeted back an apology with a discount code to present at the checkout. So when people complain about Festool on this forum, don't take it personally. We appreciate it's a largely thankless job, that you get little reward and very few/minor perks vs. the time you give up, but it's the nature of the forum/social media age.

It's about equal and opposite reactions, Festool get a lot an enormous amount of virtually free marketing and advocacy from the many members here who rave about some of the fantastic tools Festool produce and the positive perceptions of the tools are perpetuated. But the flip side of the coin is they'll take a beating over anything that is perceived to be below par; as someone who effectively "wears the blue and green overalls" as a moderator, if you're going to try to mediate try not to take it personally. It might be hard to see this forum produce threads that put Festool through the ringer, when you work hard to make it a positive environment, but you're really just fighting the tide, given the nature of the beast that is a customer facing platform, in this day and age.

 

[peter halle]

Well,  in my opinion,  Festool should provide consumers with full disclosure on the track record of its motor failure rates.

I wish there was a world where all information was publicly available. But it's not going to happen anytime soon. Disclosing such information can open a whole lot of legal troubles for a company so you can figure why they don't.

Alex, I pam ersonally with you that it would be great.  But once on the internet always on the internet rules.  Then there is the the real situation of selective "mining" of data.

In college we were taught that you could manipulate data any way you wanted to express your desired results.  Team that up with web and then for a company you are screwed not necessarily by the real raw data but by the the bending, folding, and stretching of those who all too often are really anonymous beyond a screen name or perhaps a website that has a hidden registry.

Peter

 

[peter halle]

I suspect that the crux of Phil's comment was something along the lines of "Don't worry about how to present the data because Festool is not going to share those numbers out in public."

Peter

Well,  in my opinion,  Festool should provide consumers with full disclosure on the track record of its motor failure rates.
But that's just me.

There is not a company with competent leadership in the world who would post information that would be considered proprietary, confidential, internal, or otherwise on the internet.  For years here Members have been asking why things are NAINA for example.  The answer has been that Festool does not discuss their marketing strategies in public.  Same thing with this information.

Peter

There are companies that release such data. The vital point is, companies only voluntarily release such information if it is positive and doesn't have a negative affect or confirm suspicions of customers with regards to poor quality control, etc.

I am a bit of a car enthusiast and amateur racer. Honda, a number of years back, were being accused of having build quality issues with their engines from people who tuned/modified their engines. The people whose cars broke down argued that even though they had modified the cars, this was not directly responsible for the failure and the modified aspect was being used as a scapegoat to get out of warranty claims. Honda responded by releasing internal data to prove they'd not had a single catastrophic failure of a non-modified VTEC unit during warranty period in over one million units made. This silenced the critics.

A similar sort of scenario to the Kapex, is/was the VW diesel emissions scandal. For years and years people in the know have been saying/questioning that VW diesel engines put out more BHP than the specs said and it made no sense that they could over-spec the power yet keep the CO2 figures so low, and we all know how that story ends.

So the point I'm making is companies will or won't release data, dependent on if they think it helps their cause.

Now, what I think gets up the noses of members here is that we all "know" (not for a fact but on the balance of probabilities) that the Kapex does have more problems than its stablemates and more problems than the premium price tag should allow. What makes it even worse then is that rather than simply saying we won't release such data because we don't want to, we get things like "There is not a company with competent leadership in the world who would post information that would be considered proprietary, confidential, internal, or otherwise on the internet., and as per my example above, that's not accurate and we're made to feel like Festool and its representatives take us for fools.

To try to turn post into a positive, the reason people get so hot under the collar isn't because of "mob mentality" or jumping on the band wagon, but because we like the Kapex and want the issues sorted. Either because we own one and want some peace of mind in the way of Festool admitting there's been some excessive failures and the motor warranty given an extended period. Or, in my case, wanting to buy a Kapex for the quality of the cuts it can produce, but not being able to financially take such a potentially expensive gamble of it failing just out of warranty. It's not unreasonable for one to expect a £900 tool to last 10 years without feeling anxious about it.

Festool should either release the exact figures to prove us all wrong, and demonstrate that the forum complaints are an exaggerated storm in a tea cup compared to the wider perspective; or admit there's a problem and tackle it in an honest and upstanding manner.

Now, as to a point you raised earlier. This isn't a post intended to get at you or diminish the work you've put in over the last 5 years. You have to appreciate this is 2016, the era where somebody can be in Walmart/Costco and Tweet a complaint that there's not enough staff on the tills and within a matter of minutes someone at head office has rang through to chastise the manager to get more staff on the checkout and Tweeted back an apology with a discount code to present at the checkout. So when people complain about Festool on this forum, don't take it personally. We appreciate it's a largely thankless job, that you get little reward and very few/minor perks vs. the time you give up, but it's the nature of the forum/social media age.

It's about equal and opposite reactions, Festool get a lot an enormous amount of virtually free marketing and advocacy from the many members here who rave about some of the fantastic tools Festool produce and the positive perceptions of the tools are perpetuated. But the flip side of the coin is they'll take a beating over anything that is perceived to be below par; as someone who effectively "wears the blue and green overalls" as a moderator, if you're going to try to mediate try not to take it personally. It might be hard to see this forum produce threads that put Festool through the ringer, when you work hard to make it a positive environment, but you're really just fighting the tide, given the nature of the beast that is a customer facing platform, in this day and age.

Thank you for your post.  I have read every word and will take many aspects of it to heart.  Others I will politely discard but still appreciate the spirit you offered it.

There will always be members here asking or demanding information.  If the information can be shared it will be.  We have tons of members who try to help others just like they were helped when they first got here.  THAT is the essence and the bedrock of this forum.  When threads go towards the customer service end that is where the forum is compromised. 

I posted what I did because I care about the core.  What Festool does in their marketing and their customer service doesn't mean crap to me.  Doesn't put a penny in my pocket and I don't dwell on it.  My concern is about keeping this an educational place for members.

That being said, if I see a member or members asking or demanding something that will never be provided by a privately held company based on other information I have read here and other posts I have made, then I feel that I have a responsibility to say that the information will probably not be forthcoming.

I don't take any of the comments made personally.  I care enough for this place at times to feel sorrow when posts and threads threaten the educational basis of the forum.

Peter

 

[ajones]

Peter
Thing is nothing stays the same, and that is so true with regard the internet, the forum is organic its not the same as yesterday and it will be different tomorrow.
The one thing that can be relied on is members helping one another.
Festool must take some of the responsibility as the site has evolved from being micro managed to within an inch of its life managed into what it is today.

look forward to calmer waters

 

[AlexThePalex]

What makes it even worse then is that rather than simply saying we won't release such data because we don't want to, we get things like "There is not a company with competent leadership in the world who would post information that would be considered proprietary, confidential, internal, or otherwise on the internet., and as per my example above, that's not accurate and we're made to feel like Festool and its representatives take us for fools.

Nice example of interpreting data in completely the wrong way. Just because you know of one company that released data when it suited them proves only Honda did that, while there's still hundreds of thousands of companies who don't do that. 

Furthermore, Honda probably did that under quite a lot more pressure than some forum posts.

Peter's statment is very correct.

And Peter is just a private person moderating this forum unpaid as his hobby. He is by no means a spokesperson for Festool.

 

[bobfog]

What makes it even worse then is that rather than simply saying we won't release such data because we don't want to, we get things like "There is not a company with competent leadership in the world who would post information that would be considered proprietary, confidential, internal, or otherwise on the internet., and as per my example above, that's not accurate and we're made to feel like Festool and its representatives take us for fools.

Nice example of interpreting data in completely the wrong way. Just because you know of one company that released data when it suited them proves only Honda did that, while there's still hundreds of thousands of companies who don't do that. 

Furthermore, Honda probably did that under quite a lot more pressure than some forum posts.

Peter's statment is very correct.

And Peter is just a private person moderating this forum unpaid as his hobby. He is by no means a spokesperson for Festool.

I haven't interpreted anything incorrectly, I could cite numerous examples. As for the pressure, it's all relative. Sure, Honda may have more units, but the proportion who modify is probably a smaller percentage than the percentage of Kapex users complaining. Also Peter did state "There is not a company with competent leadership in the world..." citing one company was enough for me to politely refute his point.

But I don't want to send this any further down a rabbit hole than it already is. My post was directed at Peter, who has already responded in a balanced and reasonable manner so, as per the request to not take these Kapex threads on a tangent anymore than is necessary, I'll leave it at that.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I haven't interpreted anything incorrectly, I could cite numerous examples.

No you couldn't. Citing numerous examples would require you to make a serious study. And for every example in history you could dig up there still would be hundreds of thousands of examples of companies who don't.

Here's how you interpret data incorrectly: you dig up one example and then act like that is the norm. It is not. It is a drop in the ocean. Same is happening in the Kapex thread.

Also Peter did state "There is not a company with competent leadership in the world..." citing one company was enough for me to politely refute his point.

You interpreting that statement in such an absolute way is an example of absolute nitpicking. You should be wise enough to know Peter was speaking in general and did not mean to post an absolute truth that would hold up through the ages of mankind.

What is the truth is that if companies release hard data they can and will be challenged legally (especially in the USA!) and that's why they avoid it at all cost.

 

[bobfog]

I haven't interpreted anything incorrectly, I could cite numerous examples.

No you couldn't. Citing numerous examples would require you to make a serious study. And for every example in history you could dig up there still would be hundreds of thousands of examples of companies who don't.

Here's how you interpret data incorrectly: you dig up one example and then act like that is the norm. It is not. It is a drop in the ocean. Same is happening in the Kapex thread.

Also Peter did state "There is not a company with competent leadership in the world..." citing one company was enough for me to politely refute his point.

You interpreting that statement in such an absolute way is an example of absolute nitpicking. You should be wise enough to know Peter was speaking in general and did not mean to post an absolute truth that would hold up through the ages of mankind.

Just to reiterate my point. I made a post directed at Peter, Peter acknowledged that post and as is the nature of adult interaction, agreed with some of what was said and agreed to disagree with some of it, which I respected and left it at that. Peter chose not to dissect my post and in turn I did not dissect his response; I'll exercise the same restraint here.

 

[GarryMartin]

I don't personally know whether there is or isn't a major problem with the Kapex.

I've seen reports of failures, and I've read many threads about various issues, but because I am here so much, and because I read *lots* of threads, I've also read many from owners who are really happy with their Kapex; really, really happy in fact.

You don't really search out a forum to tell everyone your tool is working correctly and that you are really happy. It just doesn't happen. But you would search out a forum if you had a problem because you'd be looking for some help and advice wouldn't you? And you'd probably do a "Kapex" "problem" search and you'd be like, wow, look at all these threads from other people having problems, even though you wouldn't actually know whether it was statistically a very small number.

As with all of my other tools, Festool or not, I'm just going to carry on enjoying mine without worrying whether it will or won't fail. I have many things that cost as much or more than a Kapex where if I wanted to, I could find forums telling me about failures and lack of manufacturer response to seemingly related problems. Apple definitely spring to mind in this area...  [crying]

But for all those challenging Festool to release company confidential data, and insinuating that by not releasing that data they're hiding a problem, I'd suggest for a little while you pop over to any of the Dewalt, Makita and other SCMS manufacturers forums who clearly aren't having problems, and ask them to release sales data and statistical information about failure rates. Because they've got nothing to hide so they'd do that - right?

Then when you have that data, bring it back here and simply ask Festool to comment on whether their statistical data is consistent with those other manufacturers or not.

I look forward to that. Should make interesting reading.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Just to reiterate my point. I made a post directed at Peter, Peter acknowledged that post and as is the nature of adult interaction, agreed with some of what was said and agreed to disagree with some of it, which I respected and left it at that. Peter chose not to dissect my post and in turn I did not dissect his response; I'll exercise the same restraint here.

Well, this is a public forum, and everything you post on a public forum can be picked up and responded to by the public, right?

We're mostly talking here about the validity of data mining, aren't we? Though inspired by the Kapex, this isn't about the Kapex. Or people. I am only responding to the ideas presented here, not directing anything at people in person. I do not patricipate in the Kapex thread, I don't own one and I have nothing vested in that. I just thought that talking about a proper way to collect and interpret data would be interesting.

 

[mikeomalley]

In complete agreement with your post Garry.

 

[Rob in Vancouver]

I suspect that the crux of Phil's comment was something along the lines of "Don't worry about how to present the data because Festool is not going to share those numbers out in public."

Peter

Well,  in my opinion,  Festool should provide consumers with full disclosure on the track record of its motor failure rates.
But that's just me.

There is not a company with competent leadership in the world who would post information that would be considered proprietary, confidential, internal, or otherwise on the internet.  For years here Members have been asking why things are NAINA for example.  The answer has been that Festool does not discuss their marketing strategies in public.  Same thing with this information.

Peter

There are companies that release such data. The vital point is, companies only voluntarily release such information if it is positive and doesn't have a negative affect or confirm suspicions of customers with regards to poor quality control, etc.

I am a bit of a car enthusiast and amateur racer. Honda, a number of years back, were being accused of having build quality issues with their engines from people who tuned/modified their engines. The people whose cars broke down argued that even though they had modified the cars, this was not directly responsible for the failure and the modified aspect was being used as a scapegoat to get out of warranty claims. Honda responded by releasing internal data to prove they'd not had a single catastrophic failure of a non-modified VTEC unit during warranty period in over one million units made. This silenced the critics.

A similar sort of scenario to the Kapex, is/was the VW diesel emissions scandal. For years and years people in the know have been saying/questioning that VW diesel engines put out more BHP than the specs said and it made no sense that they could over-spec the power yet keep the CO2 figures so low, and we all know how that story ends.

So the point I'm making is companies will or won't release data, dependent on if they think it helps their cause.

Now, what I think gets up the noses of members here is that we all "know" (not for a fact but on the balance of probabilities) that the Kapex does have more problems than its stablemates and more problems than the premium price tag should allow. What makes it even worse then is that rather than simply saying we won't release such data because we don't want to, we get things like "There is not a company with competent leadership in the world who would post information that would be considered proprietary, confidential, internal, or otherwise on the internet., and as per my example above, that's not accurate and we're made to feel like Festool and its representatives take us for fools.

To try to turn post into a positive, the reason people get so hot under the collar isn't because of "mob mentality" or jumping on the band wagon, but because we like the Kapex and want the issues sorted. Either because we own one and want some peace of mind in the way of Festool admitting there's been some excessive failures and the motor warranty given an extended period. Or, in my case, wanting to buy a Kapex for the quality of the cuts it can produce, but not being able to financially take such a potentially expensive gamble of it failing just out of warranty. It's not unreasonable for one to expect a £900 tool to last 10 years without feeling anxious about it.

Festool should either release the exact figures to prove us all wrong, and demonstrate that the forum complaints are an exaggerated storm in a tea cup compared to the wider perspective; or admit there's a problem and tackle it in an honest and upstanding manner.

Now, as to a point you raised earlier. This isn't a post intended to get at you or diminish the work you've put in over the last 5 years. You have to appreciate this is 2016, the era where somebody can be in Walmart/Costco and Tweet a complaint that there's not enough staff on the tills and within a matter of minutes someone at head office has rang through to chastise the manager to get more staff on the checkout and Tweeted back an apology with a discount code to present at the checkout. So when people complain about Festool on this forum, don't take it personally. We appreciate it's a largely thankless job, that you get little reward and very few/minor perks vs. the time you give up, but it's the nature of the forum/social media age.

It's about equal and opposite reactions, Festool get a lot an enormous amount of virtually free marketing and advocacy from the many members here who rave about some of the fantastic tools Festool produce and the positive perceptions of the tools are perpetuated. But the flip side of the coin is they'll take a beating over anything that is perceived to be below par; as someone who effectively "wears the blue and green overalls" as a moderator, if you're going to try to mediate try not to take it personally. It might be hard to see this forum produce threads that put Festool through the ringer, when you work hard to make it a positive environment, but you're really just fighting the tide, given the nature of the beast that is a customer facing platform, in this day and age.

@bobfog

I love your post.

Well thought out and we'll worded.

 

[Cheese]

There seems to be 2 camps here...those that want to find a solution and those that just want to fight...I suggest, as Phil has already so graciously done, and suggest we all sleep on it. Tomorrow, may shed more light on the subject and maybe we'll all be happier.  [big grin]