Kapex handle position - is it a problem?

[HowardH]

I was in a Woodcraft a week or so ago and was playing with the Kapex and noticed it was a bit cumbersome to operate the unit due to its handle and switch positions.  Maybe it would be just simply take some getting used to but I think I remember Per saying it was difficult to operate as well.  (if not you Per, I apologize for the reference)  Then there was this post I found today. http://www.woodworkslive.com/index.php/topic,534.0.html  So what's the consensus here, well thought out safety feature or just something we would have learn to deal with?  Is it a deal killer for you?  Just curious...

 

[Spike]

You will get all kinds of responses to how the handle feels. I agree it is not ultra comfortable, I do prefer the horizontal positioned handle as it seems more ergonomically natural. I imagine we would all get used to the vertical grip eventually.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Yes, at first the handle/safety switch is uncomfortable, at least I thought so. By the end of the first day of use I didn't find it to be an issue. I think the vertical handles has an advantages over the horizontal ones. The horizontal handles act like a lever creating torque on the carriage when cutting bevels and compound angles. This torque translates into deflection in the rails and less accurate cuts. On the Kapex the handle is centered over the blade father reducing deflection. Learn to love your vertical handle folks.

 

[Per Swenson]

The whole story,

First, I concur with what Brice said about vertical versus horizontal.

While in Vegas in mid April, I used the saw once. One cut.

I had the same reservations with the handle as has been noted.

They had it mounted not on the Kapex MFT but higher.

I even went back to the saw while no one was looking and stood

on a systainer . See if I could get it to feel right.

Fact is, there just wasn't enough time.

Then I was able to use the saw at John Lucas's shop.

All day, like a job.

1/2 hour to a hour later it became second nature .

No problem and no longer a complaint.

Just a matter of acclimatization.

Come to think of it, every time I use a brand new to the market tool

my fist impression seems to always be, I like my old one better.

Which is as natural. Familiarity is the term I am looking for.

Same thing happens with a new pair of boots.

Per

 

[Woodenfish]

Yes, at first the handle/safety switch is uncomfortable, at least I thought so. By the end of the first day of use I didn't find it to be an issue. I think the vertical handles has an advantages over the horizontal ones. The horizontal handles act like a lever creating torque on the carriage when cutting bevels and compound angles. This torque translates into deflection in the rails and less accurate cuts. On the Kapex the handle is centered over the blade father reducing deflection. Learn to love your vertical handle folks.

I have tried the saw which was secured upon a Kapex MFT briefly. In that limited time I found I did not care for the handle either. I felt that I could not maintain a comfortable steady grip repeatedly through the cut. Like in any new tool there may be some extended time needed to work out proper posture and grip for a more comfortable positive experience. Still I imagine a lot will be left up to the individual. For me personally I fear that it might end up in a love/hate relationship.

I can see how your logic of the vertical handle benefit might apply to most 90 degree crosscuts and miters with much of that success depending upon the individual operator's skill. But once you tilt the saw to cut on a bevel or a compound angle, I wouldn't think that particular theory would longer apply for anyone or to at least as much, a lesser degree?

Overall, I thought it was a very nice tool in many respects along with a few challenging deci$ion$ in other$ when outfitted with the needed acce$$orie$.

 

[Eli]

I was uncomfortable with it at first.

I haven't thought it about again after the first few days of owning the saw, until now. I think the handle is perfect, and very comfortable.

 

[Marhk]

I was in a Woodcraft a week or so ago and was playing with the Kapex and noticed it was a bit cumbersome to operate the unit due to its handle and switch positions.  Maybe it would be just simply take some getting used to but I think I remember Per saying it was difficult to operate as well.  (if not you Per, I apologize for the reference)  Then there was this post I found today. http://www.woodworkslive.com/index.php/topic,534.0.html  So what's the consensus here, well thought out safety feature or just something we would have learn to deal with?  Is it a deal killer for you?  Just curious...

This is cognitive dissonance (recall the Festinger experiments for those of you who may have studied psychology). Basically, you are put in a bind about some belief. What, in this case, puts you in the bind is that 1- Festool only offers that handle this way, 2- the tool costs so much (forcing any of you who buy it or are sure you‘re going to buy it into espousing the position) and 3- the handle may not seem correct - the 2 button device especially. Many of you at first don‘t like it but you really, really, want it - so you are forced to subconsciously convince yourself that you like it.

Festinger found that if he took college students and measured a specific belief then forced them to defend an opposite belief (on pain of grade) that their later remeasured belief system would be changed toward the opposite belief that they had been forced to espouse. Recall the emperor who had no clothes fable.

This, to me, means that if you are familiar with this type of saw (and use one regularly enough to know what you like) then your first impression is the most important. Once you have made a $1300 buying decision you will be conditioned to overlook quite a few issues with the saw.

My contention is that the DeWalt that I have used for a few years with the horizontal handle was such an improvement over the vertical one that I had before, in terms of comfort, that I really don‘t want to go back. Then the 2 button thing really cinched it! I consider this just a carpal tunnel aggravator that adds nothing to the saw. (I can‘t wait for the first Whiplash Willy who gets this idea - watch out Festool!)

For me to let loose of $1300 for a saw, that has competitors costing much less, it had better be perfect! Also, at the rate Festool releases new versions I think I‘ll wait for the next version. And, yes, I do own and use multiple Festool products.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Yes, at first the handle/safety switch is uncomfortable, at least I thought so. By the end of the first day of use I didn't find it to be an issue. I think the vertical handles has an advantages over the horizontal ones. The horizontal handles act like a lever creating torque on the carriage when cutting bevels and compound angles. This torque translates into deflection in the rails and less accurate cuts. On the Kapex the handle is centered over the blade father reducing deflection. Learn to love your vertical handle folks.

I agree with Brice on this. You will get better accuracy with a handle placed directly above the blade rather then to the side. This may not apply to the KAPEX but allot of people use thin kerf blades on the dewalt, Makita's and Bosch's and those blade cut with less resistance but stand a better chance of warping when powering through hardwood. It all comes down to a sharp blade as well. No saw will cut properly if the blade has dull teeth.

When I make a fist and hold my hand in front of my body it tends to rest on a 45 degree angle (my palm) when referenced to vertical. The KAPEX requires your palm to be at 90 degrees and that does not feel at comfortable or natural. I felt this way when playing with the KAPEX in Hendersen but as others have mentioned it becomes second nature after awhile.

Dan Clermont

 

[Frans]

Also, at the rate Festool releases new versions I think I?ll wait for the next version.

Festool's previous mitre saw (Symmetric SYM70) was introduced at least ten years ago, if not more. Still want to wait for the next version? 

 

[Brice Burrell]

  Mark, great theory, so did you fell victim to Festinger's theory with your DeWalt saw? Or maybe you really do prefer its horizontal handle over your old saw's vertical handle??  ;D

  Well, I didn't pay anything for my Kapex, I have to reason to like or dislike the handle as it relates to the cost of the saw. My old saw has a vertical handle, so maybe it's safe to assume I really do like the vertical handle. 

  First impressions are made without much or no real experience with the tool. Any meaningful assessment of a tool's value/usefullness is made after one has first hand, in depth, actual use of the tool.

  Even if a person doesn't like a particular feature on a tool that doesn't mean the tool loses it value or usefulness. That feature may be far out weighed by other more useful features. With the Kapex if a user prefers a horizontal, just maybe the other features like the dust collection, accuracy or compact size and light weight will be of such value as to justify the time spent getting used to the new handle.

  Here's some free advice, try one for yourself. And don't forget Festool has a 30 day no questions return policy if you can't live with the handle. I'll willing to bet you're going to forget about the handle by end of the first day of use.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Yes, at first the handle/safety switch is uncomfortable, at least I thought so. By the end of the first day of use I didn't find it to be an issue. I think the vertical handles has an advantages over the horizontal ones. The horizontal handles act like a lever creating torque on the carriage when cutting bevels and compound angles. This torque translates into deflection in the rails and less accurate cuts. On the Kapex the handle is centered over the blade father reducing deflection. Learn to love your vertical handle folks.

..........I can see how your logic of the vertical handle benefit might apply to most 90 degree crosscuts and miters with much of that success depending upon the individual operator's skill. But once you tilt the saw to cut on a bevel or a compound angle, I wouldn't think that particular theory would longer apply for anyone or to at least as much, a lesser degree?................

  WF, you're focusing on the wrong part of me statement. My statement is more about the increased deflection from horizontal handles. Forget the Kapex's handle for a moment, look at the horizontal handle design in general. Being offset and elongated it does act as a lever to torque the carriage on all types of cuts. Do we agree on that? If so we can move on to the Kapex's handle. The vertical handle produces very little or no torque on mitered cuts and far less torque on beveled cuts compared to horizontal handles. Does that make sense?

 

[Matteo]

I used the the Demo model in our showroom to cut the complex angles for geodesic dome frames to see what tolerances I would get.  At first the handle took a little getting use to but after 10 minutes and 4 different set ups I got really comfortable with it's angle of attack and trusting of the safety features. And my angles came out dead on.

 

[Peterm]

Guys

I'm a little confused (doesn't take much); why would a vertical handle be a deal-breaker? In the ten years or so I've been doing this for a living, I've owned two radial arm saws and three SCMS and only one of them had a horizontal handle; - what's the big deal?

A handle that's in line with the cut you're making makes a lot of sense to me - ergonomics aside (and can you imagine a handsaw with a horizontal handle?) it's easy to use by both left and right-handed people. I won't presume to try and second-guess the Festool legal/marketing/engineering status quo, but rightly or wrongly the US is seen as a litigious nation from this side of the pond, and a left-hander 'forced' to use a saw right-handed (because of the horizontal handle) who then severs a body part would make a carpal-tunnel lawsuit look like kid stuff, IMO. Perhaps this sways Festool's decisions, I couldn't possibly comment....

As for the two-stage trigger thing - you don't already have these in the US? Next thing you'll be telling me that variable speed in a SCMS is unique...

Hey, whatever; buy a Kapex; - or don't. No, do - you know you want to...

Cheers, Pete.

 

[greg mann]

This seems like a non-issue to me as well. Perhaps, because I am left-handed, the vertical orientation makes the most sense to me. I use either hand on the switch depending on which side of the blade I am working, for visual requirements and for holding stock as well. Those of you who like a horizontal grip, do you ever switch hands? Seems like that would be a pain. I kinow that the Bosch handle will swivel but who would want to swivel on alternating cuts? BTW, it also has a 2 stage switch, although it does not keep the operator from lowering the blade.

As far as left-handers suing over a bad switch design, well, I don't hear of too many (any?) left-handed lawsuits. Speaking for my LH brethren I suspect we as a group are less likely to sue, period. After all, we have grown up hearing a, "Life isn't fair. Get over it."  mantra already.

 

[Per Swenson]

Festinger.

He built box's right?

Sorry I can't help it. ;D

See....Theoretical pedagogy: Contextualized in sociology vs. black-boxed in economics

Per