Kapex top back tearout problem, any suggestions?

Big Red

Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2015
Messages
6
Hello,

I just started using my new Kapex with a Festool 80T blade that I swapped in.  I'm installing a 5" Brazillian Cherry prefinished 3/4" Hardwood floor.  I've installed about 4000 sq/ft using a Dewalt 716 12" Mitre with a 100T Diablo blade or 4 of them, to be more accurate.  I just started a new section with the Kapex and I'm experiencing a lot of chipping along the top cut towards the back as the blade climbs up and out.  I also noticed that if I do get a cut to finally be acceptable, not perfect, the piece on the left of the blade has a lot of tearout.  I've never had a good cut on the left but maybe 1 in 10 on the right.  I've flipped the wood and got a good cut more often but I do a lot of draft cuts and shaving to get the perfect fit that is much more difficult blind.  I've experimented with different speeds and different plunge and push speeds and nothing helps.  I've swapped in an Oshlun 80T blade and got the same result.  I didn't have any tearout using the Dewalt ever, although it was only a plunge cut.  Since the Kapex is smaller, you have to do a push cut and that is where the problem is happening.  Is there a technique to combat this or am I better off just using a 12" mitre saw, which would totally obliterate the reason I got the Kapex.  I figured it would do a better job.  I also wonder why the left side always has a lot more tearout chipping.  I've experimented with several clamping arrangements and they had no effect on the poor cutting quality.. 

Thanks for any tips.

Red
 
Use a backer board for tear out but if one side is tearing consistently more...it's the blade.
 
So use a backer board to shift the work piece out to minimize the length of the cut when the blade teeth rise from the cut?  I've tried using a 1"x 2" for a sacrificial fence, but it didn't help. I also thought it was the blade, but both blades were brand new and from different manufacturers and they both had the same result.  Thanks for your advice.

Red.
 
I did a loft floor in maple with a 3 1/4" Brazilian cherry border. On some of the critical (highly visible) cuts I wrapped some 3M blue painters tape around the cherry and then marked the masking tape and cut it that way. By leaving the tape on I could make multiple cuts and sneak up on the fit I wanted. Press the tape down firmly so that it has real good contact with the wood. Worth a try.
 
If the head of the saw is somehow canted, the blade will blow out the wood as the cut is made. Can you verify the blade isn't toed in or out?
 
I'd go back to the DeWalt saw before I wrapped by boards in blue tape.  I replaced my DeWalt with the Kapex and found that the stock blade did a bad job on hardwoods and swapped to the Festool finer blade and got an acceptable cut surface.

I'm interested in how this works out for you.

Jack
 
jacko9 said:
I'd go back to the DeWalt saw before I wrapped by boards in blue tape.  I replaced my DeWalt with the Kapex and found that the stock blade did a bad job on hardwoods and swapped to the Festool finer blade and got an acceptable cut surface.

I'm interested in how this works out for you.

Jack
[big grin]
That's funny. I didn't really want to wrap my boards in blue tape either but sometimes you just have to find a solution to a problem and that one worked. I forgot to mention that I was also using an older model Milwaukee slider with a Freud Ultimate Cuttoff blade. Didn't have the Kapex at the time. Also, the Brazilian cherry has a tendency to burn when you make 45 degree mitres. Despite all the issues/problems, the floor came out great.
 
Thanks for all the replies and Jack, I'm using the finer 80T blade from two different companies.  Mastercabman said to try the 60T blade, but everything I've read says use the 80T blade.  Going to the 60T blade sounds counter-intuitive.  Are you sure that is right?  I mean, I'll try it if you think it will work on such a hard wood.  I have the speed set at 6. I didn't mess with this since faster would be better, in this case, but what do I know?  If I really did know, I wouldn't be having any issues, right?

In the meantime, I think I have it figured out a workaround or work through, although it is an involved process for every cut and not the quick and easy plunge of a 12" saw like the Dewalt or any of the $250-$600 12" Miter saws out there.  The floors that I do all go diagonal or Herringbone and I have borders going around everything so all the cuts are exposed and need to be perfect.  I slightly back draft/bevel the cut edges of the diagonal boards when they butt up against the border so there is a tight seamless joining and then I groove both edges and glue a spline to mate the grooves.  Kind of a pain but it looks great.  The Dewalt 716 worked great for as long as the blade was sharp but after about 100 cuts into 5" Brazillian Cherry 3/4" thick tongue and groove planks, the blade would start to deflect as the burning got worse.  The burning wasn't too bad but as you had to go slower and slower and the burn would worsen.  For the next 400 cuts or so, it smelled like incense as it burned but hardly any smoke.  Once you saw smoke though, it was past time to change out the blade. You'd start noticing the miter cuts were cupped across the width. This is the reason I though moving to a smaller blade was the way to go.  Now, I wonder. 

The way that I got around the top surface tearout, and the old master woodworkers on here will say, "Duh" but I am not one of them,... what I did was, I built an auxiliary fence out of the 3/4" planks (This BTW, totally makes the Festool Kapex hold down clamp useless since there isn't an adjustable throat depth on the clamp) and then adjusted the cutting depth as shallow as I could go and still make a complete cut through the wood as the blade intersected with the front face of the fence.  The deeper cuts meant that the blade angle was more extreme as it spun free of the cut on the surface which lifted the chips at the leading edge of the cut which created a poor cut.  With a normal plunge cut, the angle was never great enough to tear out the back half of the width of the cut but a push cut, the whole cut pretty much has that more extreme angle as the blade leaves the cut and thus adjusting the work piece out via the thickness of the fence I chose and minimizing the depth to the least possible depth helped.  I might see if I can build out the fence another 3/4" to see if it gets better. 

I was getting bad tearout on the left side of the blade compared to the right side.  Turns out I was always clamping or holding the wood with my right hand than the cut off piece was free to vibrate.  I didn't understand it since the tearout happened almost instantly.  OK, here comes the debatable solution.  Normally I hold the keeper piece of wood and let the other side go.  It isn't a problem with a 12" chop (both pieces were perfect) but what I found was the piece being cut off is allowed the vibrate and thus the edge gets all chipped up.  I went against common practices and I did the clamp both sides of the work piece thing and I got a good edge on both sides and I need both sides because both cut edges are used and exposed.  Now I'm thinking I should make a U-channel holding fixture that will keep the work pieces secured backward and forward and a channel to keep the board flat. 

Man, what they need to do is have a system that you choose a feed, and then you can plunge the saw in the backmost position and the machine does the dreaded pull cut in a control feeding manner until you let go of the switch and the blade stops. Then you lift and return it to the starting point.  Basically, you would be in control of the downward force and the on/off.  The machine would do the speed and feed control based on what you set it at.  This way, You'd have the blade cutting down into the wood with the leading edge of the blade, and thus no topside tear out, and you would have consistent speed of the cut and the quality would match the cut before. Then you could simply disengage the feed feature and then you could do the normal plunge and push cuts if you wanted to use it the regular way.    It wouldn't be too difficult to implement since man tools out there already use some variant of this concept.

Anyway, the last thing was the rate of the plunge and the push.  I was already doing it very slowly, but then I had to slow down to the ridiculous rate of about 1/4" per second.  Talk about a loud and long lasting cut, but I digress.  So a simple plunge cut that I made on the Dewalt took about 15 seconds to line up, adjust the slight undercut bevel, hold by hand instead of having to clamp the piece, and then cut. This plunge cut took less than 5 seconds and I could shave the edge to perfection rather quickly if I needed.  Now to come up to the same result with the Kapex , barring any problems with unexpected/inconsistant tearout, takes over a minute to do with the actual cut at a 45º angle across a 5" wide board now takes almost 30 seconds to complete.  It seems so much longer while you watch and cringe to see if any tearout is going to happen and thus ruin the cut and maybe the whole work piece if this was the final cut, ready to install.  If you got tearout, you had to do it all again and then figure out how and where you are going to use that wasted board since it is too expensive of a piece of wood to just throw away.   

I think that was it.  It doesn't sound like a good solution, and if I had it all to do over again, I would have returned the Kapex and CT48, but alas, it is past the 30 day trial period and I'm stuck with it.  I'm not sure what this saw excels at besides costing a lot of money and even worse, the cost of the add-ons.  Why are the Vaccum bags almost $10 a piece?  And why doesn't the Kapex/CT48 package not automatically come with a 36mm hose to extract the sawdust since the 27mm doesn't work very well at all and I'm hesitant to mortgage my house to by a simple hose that doesn't work much better and should have been included if the smaller one was inadequate.    Maybe when this is all over, I'll do a review based on my experience.  So far, the only bright light has been this forum and the knowledgable people that take the time to help less experienced people like me.  Thanks for your help.

Red
 
Red,

Sorry to hear you are having these issues, certainly can be aggravating to say the least.

With regard to the 30 day return policy, yeah, you are out of luck there.....but, these tools do retain a good resale value and you shouldn't have a problem selling them either locally or to another FOG member.  It's not uncommon to see almost new tools sale for as little as 10% discount in the classified section on FOG.  I'm only mentioning this to you in the event you're not satisfied with the tools and want to depart with them.....
 
Hey Bohdan, 
I would do that except it is a pain trying to bevel cut a 2% draft on the blind side and need to hit the mark without going over.  Man, it's like The Price is Right or something.  The whole reason I bought the saw was for the dual lasers and the small blade deflection.  I wanted the see exactly where it was going to cut on the surface I needed to be exposed. 
 
Have you tried to making a score cut then finish it?  I did that on a few cuts when I did the flooring in my daughters house.
 
This was one of several issues I had with my Kapex. I sent it in for repair and received it back some time ago. Unfortunately I got busy with some framing work and haven't had a chance to check out the results of the repair (aside from the fact that the base was now dead flat). Been meaning to do a bunch of cutting and follow up on the thread I started when I have.
The main question for me despite all the great suggestions for Red is why the Kapex has this issue when saws a fraction of the price don't? I've had tear out problems with my ancient Hitachi but a new blade fixed it every time, same with the Bosch regardless of material. I tend to believe if it's a consistent problem (mine was with cvg fir) it's an alignment issue, but even then a plunge cut with no sliding should eliminate it.
 
awshucks said:
This was one of several issues I had with my Kapex. I sent it in for repair and received it back some time ago. Unfortunately I got busy with some framing work and haven't had a chance to check out the results of the repair (aside from the fact that the base was now dead flat). Been meaning to do a bunch of cutting and follow up on the thread I started when I have.
The main question for me despite all the great suggestions for Red is why the Kapex has this issue when saws a fraction of the price don't? I've had tear out problems with my ancient Hitachi but a new blade fixed it every time, same with the Bosch regardless of material. I tend to believe if it's a consistent problem (mine was with cvg fir) it's an alignment issue, but even then a plunge cut with no sliding should eliminate it.

It probably has something to do with the properties of the blade, like grinding/angle of the teeth, along with the tooth material and coatings.

From the videos I've seen and a brief usage of a Kapex it does seem to cut through wood like a hot knife through butter. Therefore with the standard supplied blade, the priority was probably leaning towards wowing customers with "look how fast it cuts through that 2 x 4" as opposed to "look how clean that cut is".

My Bosch Glide saw was the opposite, it initially disappointed me with its speed of cut with the supplied blade, but the cut was exceptionally clean on all materials.

I guess it's just a trade off and Festool felt speed of cut was a priority with the supplied blade, but supply alternate for hardwoods in the form of the above mentioned 64t hardwood blade.
 
Talking about different blades, has anyone used the Forrest blade that was designed for the Kapex, and if so, how does the cut compare to the standard Kapex blade?
 
Hey Guys,

Just an update.  The next day I started cutting and it was a lot easier to get a good cut.  I thought, wow, there's a learning curve for this saw?  I mean there is some getting used to any new tool so I just chalked up to that and made several more successful cuts and I thought I was good to go.  All it needed was a little breaking in.  Well, tonight I started cutting again and the cuts looked like a beaver chewed the top edge.  I couldn't believe it.  I was getting worse.  Well, then I stopped and did a bunch of cuts and a bunch of different ways.  Turns out then I have the Miter 45º to the right and beveled 2º to the left or counter clockwise, it can cut perfectly but swinging the miter 45º to the left of center and it will chew the top surface up, chipping it along the way no matter if I make a shallow score cut or all the way through and no matter how fast or slow, it made no difference.  So, I think my saw is out of alignment somehow.  I'll have to figure out what to say and who to say it to to get it fixed.  Sucks that I'm in the middle of a job.  I might have to go out and buy another Miter Saw.  The Bosche one at the hardware store looked good except it doesn't have a laser or anything.  Does anyone else have any recommendation for a 12" compound miter saw that is readily available and works like it should?  At this point, I just want to cut wood and do it fast and well. 

Thanks for everyone's help and I'll keep you posted.

Red.
 
Red,

A review in Fine Woodworking magazine of Miter saws for furniture making rated the Bosch CM12 (non-slider) as the most consistent performer and best value.

Jack
 
Red,

There are lasers available as add-ons for miter and radial arm saws, at a modest price....the ones I've used in past turn on when the blades starting spinning.

Gary
 
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