Kreg Pocket Hole Concealed Deck Fastening System

[peter halle]

It looks like I will be trying out the Kreg Concealed Fastener System for deck within the next week to ten days.  It has been mentioned here before briefly, but I was wondering if anyone has used it yet.  I have used other concealed fastener systems before, but this one was easily available and after trying a few sample screws will work for my application.

The deck that I will be installing will be a composite deck - Azek - that will be installed over a rubber (edpm) membrane on pressure treated sleepers 1.5 inches thick.  The decking material choice is firm and can't be changed.  It does not come grooved for the typical hidden fastener systems, and I don't want to groove it.  I can't use typical decking screws because of the length and possibility of puncturing the rubber.  I did look into the sytem that had the colored plugs, but they won't work.

The Kreg system looks to be pretty neat and will give me a great opportunity to use my TDK-12 and T-15 side by side for an extended period of time.

My questions - Has anyone else used this system?  Would a write-up of it be interesting, or should I not bother?

Here is a link to their video on youtube:  Kreg Concealed Deck Fastening System

Peter

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I would rather cut some groves and use a TC-G.

That Kreg just looks way slow.

 

[peter halle]

Darcy,

Based on your recommendations of the Tiger Claw system, I did consider using the TC.  My concern was the length of the screws and TC's recommendation to drive them at a 45 degree angle.  I am installing this deck on top of 1.5 inch thick sleepers on top of a rubber roof.  If the screws were installed at the prescribed 45 degree angle, based on the length of the TC screws, I would only have about one eighth of an inch leeway.  It the screws were driven at a steeper angle, I could have punctures.

This is a trial run.  They very well might end up being slower and never be used again by me.  We'll see.

Peter

 

[Guy Ashley]

Peter

I would be very interested in how this jig performs. It costs about $120 in the UK so I dont want to buy one and then find it is a gimmick.

 

[wnagle]

I hasn't seen the jig in person or used one yet but it does look interesting.  If it's like other Kreg products, I suspect it will work as advertised...Peter will have to let us know his experience. 

My main concern with the design, the holes drilled on an angle would still leave a pocket to collect and hold water.  Over time It seems to me this would be a concern unless you were using materials that wouldn't rot when subjected to hundreds of little pockets of water on it's edges.  Again this is the first thing that came to mind when I first saw the system.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

The Kreg thing reminds me of the domino deck thing, just looks horribly slow.

It may be great if you only have a little bit to do.

Those 1 1/2" sleepers still need to be set up on a little block so you can have some ventilation and let the water out from under them.

IMO, the sleepers right on the membrane is asking for trouble in a few years down the road.

Is there no way to gain a little more height?

 

[Brice Burrell]

.......My main concern with the design, the holes drilled on an angle would still leave a pocket to collect and hold water.  Over time It seems to me this would be a concern unless you were using materials that wouldn't rot when subjected to hundreds of little pockets of water on it's edges.  Again this is the first thing that came to mind when I first saw the system.

Wayne, the alternative is to nail or screw in the face. In other words, holes in the face for water to collect. Sure the holes from the pocket on the Kreg jig will likely be a little deeper and going to hold more water than face nailing or other most hidden fastener systems.

The Kreg thing reminds me of the domino deck thing, just looks horribly slow.....

I'd like to know if you have to pre-drill?? Not drilling would certainly speed things up. At that point maybe you don't even need the Kreg jig.

 

[peter halle]

Brice,

The jig is first used to pre drill and then it is used to guide the screw in.  Definitely a two drill process.  Sure am glad I have 2 Festool drills  [big grin].

For those wondering about water retention in the holes - my guess is that they will hold less water than a screw driven straight in:

[attachimg=#]

Using this system will give me a comfort factor with screw length:

[attachimg=#]

It will be interesting...

Peter

 

[Brice Burrell]

Brice,

The jig is first used to pre drill and then it is used to guide the screw in.  Definitely a two drill process.  Sure am glad I have 2 Festool drills  [big grin].

Yeah, but do you have to pre-drill?

 

[peter halle]

Brice,

If you are asking if it is possible to drive the screws without pre-drilling - the answer is yes.  The screws pull the heads into the material with some mushrooming.

You could also use the jig to just knick the suface so that the point of the screw has something to register on.  Then use your skills to eyeball and drill or use the jig to just drive the screws.

I will try the system as Kreg intended this time.  You are only drilling about .75 inches after the tip of the bit hits the decking material.  Who knows about the future?

Hope that this answered your question.

Peter

 

[RONWEN]

Brice,
The jig is first used to pre drill and then it is used to guide the screw in.  Definitely a two drill process.  Sure am glad I have 2 Festool drills  [big grin].
For those wondering about water retention in the holes - my guess is that they will hold less water than a screw driven straight in:
[attachimg=#]
Using this system will give me a comfort factor with screw length:
[attachimg=#]
It will be interesting...
Peter

Does the opposite edge just go unattached or is it intended to drive in those screws (conventionally) from the top?

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I believe you have to put one in both sides.

I would rather see face screws then a hole like that on the edge of the board.

 

[peter halle]

Brice,
The jig is first used to pre drill and then it is used to guide the screw in.  Definitely a two drill process.  Sure am glad I have 2 Festool drills  [big grin].
For those wondering about water retention in the holes - my guess is that they will hold less water than a screw driven straight in:
[attachimg=#]
Using this system will give me a comfort factor with screw length:
[attachimg=#]
It will be interesting...
Peter

Does the opposite edge just go unattached or is it intended to drive in those screws (conventionally) from the top?

Ron,

Screws get installed from both sides.  You use the jig first from the open side, then once you are done there you go to the finished side.  The jig is designed to allow you to drill and insert those screws in a board .25 inches or more from its neighbor.

Darcy,

You bring up a good point.  I think that I have some old composite sitting just beyond my old Blazer storage vehicle and I might cut some sections and try it out first.  I'll post pictures here from all angles versus the Kreg promo angles so that people can see and chime in.  Thanks for the input!

Rest assured, this one of the wackiest deck situations I have come across.  The consideration for this system is only because of the existing conditions.  The top of the tapered thresholds at the doors entering onto this deck are only 1.25 - 1.5 inches above the plywood deck that this system will be installed on.  LUCKILY, this deck has a a similar waterproof deck over it just like this one is over another - a stack of three.  The owner of the deck above - unprotected - called down to me and said that he wanted to talk to me about redoing his deck - GULP!

Peter

Peter

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I have seen the Azek done with 15 ga SS nails, toe nailed through the edge.

I know you can get some head coats that match the colors.

I just don't think I would like looking at a screw in the edge of the board like that, I know you will be able to see them.

Just my 2 cents Peter. [big grin]

 

[RONWEN]

Brice,
The jig is first used to pre drill and then it is used to guide the screw in.  Definitely a two drill process.  Sure am glad I have 2 Festool drills  [big grin].
For those wondering about water retention in the holes - my guess is that they will hold less water than a screw driven straight in:
[attachimg=#]
Using this system will give me a comfort factor with screw length:
[attachimg=#]
It will be interesting...
Peter

Does the opposite edge just go unattached or is it intended to drive in those screws (conventionally) from the top?

Ron,

Screws get installed from both sides.  You use the jig first from the open side, then once you are done there you go to the finished side.  The jig is designed to allow you to drill and insert those screws in a board .25 inches or more from its neighbor.

Darcy,

You bring up a good point.  I think that I have some old composite sitting just beyond my old Blazer storage vehicle and I might cut some sections and try it out first.  I'll post pictures here from all angles versus the Kreg promo angles so that people can see and chime in.  Thanks for the input!

Rest assured, this one of the wackiest deck situations I have come across.  The consideration for this system is only because of the existing conditions.  The top of the tapered thresholds at the doors entering onto this deck are only 1.25 - 1.5 inches above the plywood deck that this system will be installed on.  LUCKILY, this deck has a a similar waterproof deck over it just like this one is over another - a stack of three.  The owner of the deck above - unprotected - called down to me and said that he wanted to talk to me about redoing his deck - GULP!

Peter

Peter

Ahhhh, From a distance it appeared unidirectional (only installing from the side where there weren't any deck boards)-- that makes much more sense now.
  (I just watched the video -- very slick system.)

 

[peter halle]

Darcy,

I appreciate every bit of your advice.  I am also skeptical of this experiment.  Here is what I am faced with:

Just like you have written, I have been sitting on my rump waiting for things to get better.  My largest client had plenty of work to do, but they weren't moving on any of it.  All of a sudden everything broke loose at once.  This project - which is in addition to the broken loose long jamb - will be about 12 thousand when done - including other things than just the deck that I will soon be installing.

I looked at the screws that have the matching azek plugs.  I looked at the tiger paws.  I looked at the quickdrive screws.  I've looked for colored fasteners elsewhere.  This just happens to be the best potential solution that I have found to show to the customer to date.

After my sample, if they are hideous, I will tell the customer that I did some experiments and that this system doesn't pass my muster.  Will she be upset?  Doubtful.  Contractors who show the foresight to experiment after offering possibilities, and then cancel based on those observations, are usually highly regarded.

I'll post pictures of my experiment and then we'll see.

Peter

 

[peter halle]

Ron,

Just like you, when I first saw this I thought that Kreg had come up with a system that only required screwing from one side - based on the stability of the decking boards.  It will be interesting to see what the total installed cost of this will end up being.  Thank goodness I have a helper now.  He'll be screwing his heart out and I'll be checking the forum  [eek].

Seriously, if this comes to pass, I'll be getting a send jig and we will be working opposite each other on each board.  The only difference will be that I will be using Festool and he will be using crap other.

This forum loves a guinea pig.  Oink.

Peter

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

What about an EBTY type fastener?  http://www.ebty.com/

Or a TC-3S  http://www.deckfastener.com/products.asp

Just make sure there is some sort of way to keep the air flowing underneath that deck.

 

[bjackson3]

Look up the new HID fast system, it is way fast and Azek says they still warranty there products with it.  Just did about 600 sq feet in a day no prob.  Our local yard rents the gun. The fasteners are about the same cost as the plug system but the time you save is unbelievable.

 

[peter halle]

I would appreciate more nformation or a link on that system,

Peter