Largest reception desk I have done in 5 years (new pic, overhead view)

Crazyraceguy said:
Some of them are fairly easy, essentially done by linear footage. Things like this? It just baffles me. I have often discussed this with our top sales guy. He is the one who calculates this kind of thing. I just don't get it though. How can they cost-estimate something that they have no idea how to do (or how it will be done)? Often there is a conversation/consultation between myself and the engineering guys about how thing can/will be done. This is all well after the contract has already been accepted.
The only answer I really get is experience and educated guess.
I've been doing this a long time and wouldn't even hazard a guess. There are so many factors that come into play, including whether I get help, the ability of that help, things that actually work against me, etc.
There is just no way to know....that guess has to be more of a guess than anyone is willing to admit.

My guess is that he's the top sales guy because, on average, he's right more often than he's wrong, and the "errors in client's favor" are outweighed and made up for by the "errors in business's favor".  The few contractors I've worked with for work on my house seem to have similar mindsets.  It shouldn't be up to me as a client to know if a job is profitable or not, nor is it my job to ensure that a company stays in business at the prices they're charging.  If I feel an estimate is fair, I accept it.  If a job has overruns and the price needs to increase, it really depends on whether or not the contractor has kept me in the loop and whether either of us feel like the other is being reasonable.  I've finally found someone with whom I can work and not have to worry about such things, nor worry about feeling ripped off after the job is complete.

Packard said:
My friend, a tree surgeon, was contracted to clean up a huge lot and also prune the trees.

He told the homeowner that the only way to price the job was by the hours logged.

Surprisingly, the homeowner agreed.  It sounded like a signed blank check to me.

In the end they were both satisfied.  The homeowner got a fair price and my friend made a fair profit.

I don’t think many people will go along with that arrangement.

I can usually tell by the conversation with a contractor whether their "time and materials" estimate is because of true unknowns or because they don't have any idea how to estimate a job.  In my local experience, it's usually the latter, but if I had a large overgrown plot with a lot of unknowns, I would understand the reasoning.

It's all about that personal conversation, to me.
 
I agree…..and plenty of work is done on time and material too…some old house restoration for one , you can’t always know what you’re in for
 
IMO it is best to mix this where a pure fixed cost is a not suitable.

Especially for a more complex job, I would ask for a fixed price for the "known" parts that are possible to separate and either an open-ended or "checkpoint-based" arrangement for those areas where "no one knows" or risks are involved.

E.g. for a renovation, I would go with time & materials for the demo/uncovering part. Then have a checkpoint where we all meet, sign off on the demo/uncover work, see what is up, and move from there. Preferably with a fixed-price arrangement.

The issue with time & materials is it creates an anti-efficiency motivation for the supplier. I rather agree a 20% plus on a fixed contract and request the details are taken care of above and beyond than spend the same money (or more) in a time + materials arrangement. Probably comes form me seeing what "time + materials" can do in the corporate world ...
 
The problem is trust.

The buyer has to trust that the vendor is not slow-walking the job, i.e. stretching the hours.

The best protection against that is to use a vendor that has loads of work to do, and not enough time to do them. Stretching the hours will only mean being late on the next job.

It is only a problem with a vendor that is not busy.
 
The hot rush continued after it left me. The driver delivered it, starting at 5am, since the truck had to be empty and gone before 7am. The guys got on it right away and apparently were there for over 12 hours  [eek] Working around/with the electricians, to get it back up and running. The panic was that this was to be a tear-out and replace in one day. The contractor's crew did the demo, the night before, planning for as little down-time as possible.
It is still missing a couple of adjustable height tables, since the bases have not arrived, but that is not our problem. The base trim still needs to go on too, but it is functional now.
 

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Looks great.

Just a semi-related question: Is the Corian of today better than the Corian of 30+ years ago? In that the old Corian would yellow over time. I'm the cracking I've seen in Corian countertops were fabricators not knowing what they're doing.
 
Really nice job... [thumbs up] [thumbs up] ...as large and ungainly as it appeared to be when naked, once finished & installed it fits right in-place.  [big grin]  It looks really good.

I noticed all of the holes for electrical runs in the first series of photos and thought "well that's nice." However, I forgot that this desk is a commercial installation so there still had to be electrical boxes, conduit and wires being installed at the same time your people were trying to install the desk. Hats off to everyone on this job.  [big grin]

 
Looks great in place.  When I was a Project Manager for a big box store retailer years ago I always loved being on site to watch the installers place and field modify the millworker and display cases.  Part of my job was initially to help design the fixtures and layouts so it would be easier to make the field modifications.  We were doing renovations of building en mass and although they were based on a few different prototypes we had to for example design the jewelry display cases as standards that could be mixed and matched based on the type of layout.  The reason for this was that each display case size or differing shape had to have a separate UL listing and that got timely and expensive.  It was far more expeditious and less expensive to design fillers of laminated casework to make up the oddities and site conditions.

Peter
 
smorgasbord said:
Looks great.

Just a semi-related question: Is the Corian of today better than the Corian of 30+ years ago? In that the old Corian would yellow over time. I'm the cracking I've seen in Corian countertops were fabricators not knowing what they're doing.

I would say that it is, DuPont does not "sit on their hands", even on existing products. There are so many more colors than there used to be. White is always popular, there are several whites (or variations) but the patterns have gotten way more intricate. Back in the day, there were a few solid colors and the others just had "particulates". They varied in size, but that was about it. Now they have patterns with lines/veins, more like real stone. There is even one with a woodgrain pattern.
I think is has gotten somewhat less brittle, not that it appreciates an impact, but it does seem to take it better.
It is somewhat thermal reactive. It can shrink/grow quite a bit, in extreme conditions. This can cause cracking if it is overly restricted. That is the reasoning behind using silicone to adhere it to the substrate. It can stretch with the product, then more back without being destroyed.
The lower section (lighter gray) is bolted through the Corian, on the higher inner wall. It has enlarged holes, so that the bolts are not a constraining factor. The piece can move without being bound up.

When we bent the part around the face of that lower left end, my apprentice was shocked by how much it had expended, and that you could literally hear it pop/tick as it shrank back while cooling. It stayed about 1/8" taller, after returning to original temperature. He has been working with solid surface, for a couple of years now, but never in a situation where you could see it do that. It takes a lot of heat to do that though, in everyday conditions, it wouldn't even be measurable. The most likely problem would be if a building lost heat, for more than a few hours.

Cheese said:
Really nice job... [thumbs up] [thumbs up] ...as large and ungainly as it appeared to be when naked, once finished & installed it fits right in-place.  [big grin]  It looks really good.

I noticed all of the holes for electrical runs in the first series of photos and thought "well that's nice." However, I forgot that this desk is a commercial installation so there still had to be electrical boxes, conduit and wires being installed at the same time your people were trying to install the desk. Hats off to everyone on this job.  [big grin]

Thank you. Part of the ungainly look is the blocks. Every project I build is sitting on 10"x10"x20" blocks, so they appear much more "in your face". It does create a trade-off problem on walls like this. That high center section is 52" high. Up 20" more requires some extra effort but laminating that lower face any closer to the floor is worse. 
The one "mistake" I made, from the beginning, was to have it a little too close. That back wall was less than 3 feet away. It wasn't worth the time/trouble to move it, but we did have some clearance issues walking around it a few times. It's a long way around that thing and I did it many times.  [scared]

I was sure hoping that they got the laser measuring right. Those four posts and the large column all had to fit perfectly. (it must have gone well, I would have heard about big problems) I haven't seen the install crew in person since though. They did an amazing job, sticking with it to the end.

We always put at least 2 rows of holes in the studs. It is apparently "best practice" to keep the line voltage wires away from the low voltage cables. Sometimes there are more, but those are spec'd by the architect. Once in a while, there are oxygen lines, or soda dispenser lines, just depends on the job.

Imemiter said:
Sure doesn't look like a rush job. Well done CRG!

Thank you.
It definitely was. Under normal circumstances, that never happens. I generally get things done well under the estimated time. Sometimes they have to rush the office guys, to get me something to do, because of that. Then I get jobs that are not as "complete" as usual, from the engineering dept. Sometimes that creates extra work for me, but not always, it works out. These stack up problems don't happen often.....thankfully. The helper was quite the bonus. It could never have happened this quickly without him. (the main solid surface guy has been out sick for the last 2 weeks) He will be back and have missed this entire mess.
I started assembling the frame on Monday the 20th. The other guy in my department did the small L shaped section, so I never touched it, except for a test fit on Friday. The apprentice/trainee took on the Corian parts. I was off for a Dr appointment on the 22nd. All 3 of us were on it from there; Thursday, Friday, 5 hours Saturday, Monday, Tuesday, done and apart on Wednesday.
So, 7 1/2 days, quite a thrash.

Supposedly, we got this job because someone promised it by a certain day, but they didn't know how much extra time the 2nd bullet resistant security desk would take. They were already rushing me at that point.
 
Today I got ahold of a cool looking overhead shot. It was taken at the same time, but somehow missed me? It gives a much better perspective of the size/shape of the thing.
Wow, it's been a month since this was done? That seems impossible  [blink]
 

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