LR32 - First use a dismal failure

[bruegf]

I finally had a reason to use the LR32 I bought nearly a year ago.  I'm in the process of building a very shallow bookcase that will be hung as a closet door.  The shelves are only 5.25 deep - just enough to hold paperbacks.

Everything seemed to be going well and the LR32 was really nice to use for drilling holes for shelf supports, but unfortunately the two rows of holes don't line up at all, as much as 3/64" difference which is huge for a shelf that's only 5.25 deep.  I was very, very careful to make sure the longitudonal stop was always firmly against the end of the work piece before clamping the rail and I set the rail from the same end of the piece for both rows of holes.  The distance from the end of the rail to the first slot in the rail is within .001" on both ends of the rails so that can't be the problem.

The only thing I've found is that I can measure as much as .005" longitudonal play on the router base when it is indexed in the holes on the rail, even though the width of the rail slot is only .001" larger than base's pin diameter.

I'm completely baffled as to how I ended up turning $200 of cherry into firewood.  Any an all thoughts are appreciated.

Once I get this thing figured out, the LR32 will be neatest thing since sliced bread for drilling shelp support holes. 

Thanks

Fred

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Wow, and sorry, Fred, to hear of your problem and wasted cherry.  Because My work with my LR 32 hole drilling set has yet to be to make Euro cabinets, I have always used a large reference square (Woodpecker's 18 inch carpenter's right triangle) to check alignment of my LR 32 rail before drilling the shelf pin holes with my OF 1400 router.  I have not attempted to measure the amount of play (tolerance, slop) in the hole position, but have not had any problems due to misalignment that were not my own fault.  Any problems I have encountered have been due to slippage or improper placement of the LR 32 rail because I was referencing off different ends and edges of the workpiece which was not truly square. 

If possible, could you further describe how you prepared your stock and how you aligned you LR 32 prior to drilling the holes?

Dave R.

 

[Overtime]

Just some random thoughts and questions.

The 5 1/4" width of the board is kind of narrow but still should work fine.

Did you have enough of the board under the rail for flush support ?

Did you use another board of exact thickness to rest under the rail while drilling the holes in the good one ?

When you say you referenced them from the same end - did you flip the board and push it up against the opposite end stop on the rail, keeping most of the board and the first row of holes under the rail - The more stock that is under the rail the better for support.

You should  try to repeat your process using a scrap of mdf or ply.

Like Dave said, make some lines on the board first where you want the row of holes then make cross section lines. Then set up and see ( without drilling ) what you would get. It will help show what is wrong. Marking cross lines wont be required once you identify what's happening.

Make sure that the board has square ends and is uniform width. Yea I know you have done all this, but do it again.

It sounds like operator error and most likely is. Just need to find the cause.

The narrow stock  hmm - use two boards under the rail so there is plenty of stable support while  drillind the good one.

And before you toss the cherry into the fireplace  -  use home made cherry plugs - drill press some depth over the existing holes with forstner bit then use a plug cutter. Or make some dowel stock using the cherry in 5mm.

 

[bruegf]

Just some random thoughts and questions.

The 5 1/4" width of the board is kind of narrow but still should work fine.

Did you have enough of the board under the rail for flush support ? 
Yes, I placed two boards under the rail to ensure the rail was full supported.

Did you use another board of exact thickness to rest under the rail while drilling the holes in the good one ?
yes

When you say you referenced them from the same end - did you flip the board and push it up against the opposite end stop on the rail, keeping most of the board and the first row of holes under the rail - The more stock that is under the rail the better for support.
I started with the board laying across the long dimension of the MFT I drilled the holes on the edge of the board facing me starting at the right end of the board.  I then rotated the board so that the holes I just finished drilling where now on the left end and back edge of the board.  Moved the longitudonal stop to the left end of the rail and placed the rail on the left end of the board.

You should  try to repeat your process using a scrap of mdf or ply.
I agree, that should be my next step

Like Dave said, make some lines on the board first where you want the row of holes then make cross section lines. Then set up and see ( without drilling ) what you would get. It will help show what is wrong. Marking cross lines wont be required once you identify what's happening.
I need to do that - I didn't because I discovered a short while ago that the adjustable square I have is no longer "square" so I need to get that fixed before I can trust it

Make sure that the board has square ends and is uniform width. Yea I know you have done all this, but do it again.

It sounds like operator error and most likely is. Just need to find the cause.
Could well be since this is the first time I've ever used the LR32, but I was very careful  I'm guessing its a combination of 2 or 3 little things that compounded to make a really noticeable difference.

The narrow stock  hmm - use two boards under the rail so there is plenty of stable support while  drillind the good one.

And before you toss the cherry into the fireplace  -  use home made cherry plugs - drill press some depth over the existing holes with forstner bit then use a plug cutter. Or make some dowel stock using the cherry in 5mm.
I considered that but I've got almost 50' worth of holes to plug and I don't think I have the patience for that

 

[bruegf]

Wow, and sorry, Fred, to hear of your problem and wasted cherry.  Because My work with my LR 32 hole drilling set has yet to be to make Euro cabinets, I have always used a large reference square (Woodpecker's 18 inch carpenter's right triangle) to check alignment of my LR 32 rail before drilling the shelf pin holes with my OF 1400 router.  I have not attempted to measure the amount of play (tolerance, slop) in the hole position, but have not had any problems due to misalignment that were not my own fault.  Any problems I have encountered have been due to slippage or improper placement of the LR 32 rail because I was referencing off different ends and edges of the workpiece which was not truly square. 

If possible, could you further describe how you prepared your stock and how you aligned you LR 32 prior to drilling the holes?

Dave R.

The stock was jointed and then planed to thickness on my Fathers (retired German cabinet maker) equipment and then cut to final width on his Unisaw with digital fence (sweet setup) so I know that was all done correctly.  Final length cuts were made on my MFT and TS55 and I did just discover that my MFT rail was very slightly out of square to the MFT fence, so that accounts for a bit of the offset in the holes, but no where near all of it.  I have a large (approx 18" x 24") piece of mdf that I use as a square to set the fence/rail on the MFT and just found out that even though the diagonal measurements are exactly the same it is still not square (think trapezoid).  It never occurred to me before this that a board could be out of square if the diagonal measurements are the same..

As far as how I aligned the LR32 to the piece, see my reply to Overtime above.

Thanks for the reply

Fred

 

[Forrest Anderson]

Is there a chance that some wood dust or shavings found their way between the end stop and the wood?

To salvage the wood, could you rip the verticals between the holes, and then glue them back together so that the holes line up? I know that the grain woudln't match perfectly, the verticals would be a little bit narrower, and you'd know the join was there even if no-one else noticed it, but it might be worth a shot.

Forrest

 

[Overtime]

Sounds like you got most aspects covered;

Overtime
"Like Dave said, make some lines on the board first where you want the row of holes then make cross section lines. Then set up and see ( without drilling ) what you would get. It will help show what is wrong. Marking cross lines wont be required once you identify what's happening."
bruegf
"I need to do that - I didn't because I discovered a short while ago that the adjustable square I have is no longer "square" so I need to get that fixed before I can trust it"

Do the old  (measure the diagonals) to insure square.
Then measure up from each end of board mark dots connect to make cross sections.

I had this very same issue not long ago and my second row of holes were off by as much as 1/8" My cabinet sides were 21" wide.

I thought they were square but it turned out the top ends were off by about 1 m.

Good thing I referenced from the bottom of the panels because as it turned out the holes were perfectly parallel when measured from the bottom up. But measuring down from the top it appeared they were off. Turned out that that end was not square.
 
I was able to salvage and save the work by shaving them square using the MFT and 55

Yes , what Forrest said or rip out the sections w/holes if needed and reuse stock on another project for stile & rail or edge stock.

 

[bruegf]

Is there a chance that some wood dust or shavings found their way between the end stop and the wood?

To salvage the wood, could you rip the verticals between the holes, and then glue them back together so that the holes line up? I know that the grain woudln't match perfectly, the verticals would be a little bit narrower, and you'd know the join was there even if no-one else noticed it, but it might be worth a shot.

Forrest

If it was just one out of the 4 boards I'd chalk it up to carelessness when I seated the longitudonal stop or a stray chip or shaving in the way, but since it was all 4 boards it seems unlikely. 

Hadn't thought about ripping the holes out that but that's worth taking a look at.    Could even glue a thin strip of contrasting wood in where the holes were ripped out to make it look like it was designed that way.

Thanks

Fred

 

[bruegf]

reuse stock on another project for stile & rail or edge stock.

There's no doubt the wood can/will be used in one way or another.  The "firewood" comment was just my frustration talking.

Fred

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Rather than ripping out the rows of holes that are misaligned, you could rout a groove/stopped dado and insert a patch of similar or contrasting colored wood as an accent.  If you have any MFS, this could be very simple to do.  You can also do it using your router and guide rail.

Dave R.

 

[BarryL]

I like that idea Dave, however, won't the misalignment show itself from side to side once you redrill the holes?

 

[Ken Milhinch]

I love Festool tools but for this job, I would much prefer to use this  http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5876 for a fraction of the cost and perfect results every time. It's also faster to set up.

 

[bruegf]

Rather than ripping out the rows of holes that are misaligned, you could rout a groove/stopped dado and insert a patch of similar or contrasting colored wood as an accent.  If you have any MFS, this could be very simple to do.  You can also do it using your router and guide rail.

Dave R.

I thought of that on the way home from work as well.  The only thing I'm worried about with that approach is the panel warping since I would only be gluing from one side and my experience (limited as it is) is that gluing something on one side only is an open invitation to a warped piece.

Thanks

Fred

 

[Steve Jones]

Fred,

One possible source of your problem that hasn't been mentioned yet is a couple of critical settings.

1) Use the centering pin that came with the LR32 system when mounting the router to the LR32 plate - it's got to be very exact, I mount mine and rotate it in the hole to make sure I'm exactly centered - if you don't end up with perfect alignment here the router bit can be not exactly lined up with the hole in the rail, and of course reversing direction for the second row causes this offset to be doubled.

2) Make sure the adjustment to take out slop on the "top hat" on the rail is fairly snug, again any slop will be doubled when you reverse direction for the second cut.

I know this because my first experience with the jig was very similar to yours - I'm now delighted with the results I get.

Steve

 

[Zaphod]

I'm with Ken in regards to any advantage of the LR32 over the Rockler type jig; it's completely foolproof and under $50 bucks, can do 1/4 or 5mm holes and is compliant with the 32mm system.  Seems like a lot of work to setup the LR32 jig, mounting plate, & router to accomplish a relatively mundane task.

Built a kitchen full o' cabinets recently and tried to convince myself the LR32 would be useful in that application; couldn't perceive an advantage over the aforementioned drill jig.  Please enlightened me if I overlooked an LR32 advantage.

 

[rnt80]

I have both the Rockler jig and the LR32.  I picked up the whole LR32 system with the rail for about half price.  I wouldn't have considered it otherwise.  The Rockler jig certainly is faster.  It's ease of use is hard to beat.  However, in my experience there was quite a bit of tear out with the holes.  After a while I used some blue tape to keep the tear out to a minimum. 
While the LR32 takes longer to set up the holes are much cleaner and for all intensive purposes there is no dust.  That can't be said for the Rockler jig.  If you're doing a lot of cabinets I think the LR32 system is certainly worth it.  If you're limited to just a few a year then the Rockler jig is pretty attractive.

 

[JeromeM]

There is also the factor that the LR32 is not limited to any size of hole. I intend to us mine to make a pattern for workbench top with a 30mm holes at 96mm centers (160 of them) AKA MFT style.

I also intend to use it to permit moving shelf slide hardware to accommodate different systainer sizes. For this I may need 5 rows of holes and they will not be the standard setback.

And of course it can be used for hinge placement.

So if your only use is shelf support holes the Rockler jig could be the better option. But for me there is no contest the LR32 wins hands down.

 

[robtonya]

I love Festool tools but for this job, I would much prefer to use this  http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5876 for a fraction of the cost and perfect results every time. It's also faster to set up.

I agree!

 

[bruegf]

Fred,

One possible source of your problem that hasn't been mentioned yet is a couple of critical settings.

1) Use the centering pin that came with the LR32 system when mounting the router to the LR32 plate - it's got to be very exact, I mount mine and rotate it in the hole to make sure I'm exactly centered - if you don't end up with perfect alignment here the router bit can be not exactly lined up with the hole in the rail, and of course reversing direction for the second row causes this offset to be doubled.

2) Make sure the adjustment to take out slop on the "top hat" on the rail is fairly snug, again any slop will be doubled when you reverse direction for the second cut.

I know this because my first experience with the jig was very similar to yours - I'm now delighted with the results I get.

Steve

I think that was one source of the error.  I had adjusted it when I first bought it last spring, but hadn't actually used it until now.    It looks like I had one side snug enough, but that the other side wasn't which allowed the entire base to pivot very, very slightly.  I think this coupled with the fact that my end cuts weren't perfectly square because the MFT rail wasn't 100% square to the MFT fence when I cut the pieces to length both combined to create the misalignment I ended up with.

Thanks

Fred

 

[Sammy J]

Thanks for the heads up people, as I was just about to purchase one for my OF1010 after a kitchen project with a "few" misaligned pin holes with my home made jig.

Two advantages I see for the LR32 jig compared to the rockler jig:

1) No tear out in melamine
2) Pin holes are always at right angles

Thanks again

Sam