My beef with Festool and MFT3 - 1080 compatibility (and more...)

[nadsab]

I have had a beef with Festool ever since the new MFT3 table came out and I am posting this here with hopes that someone from Festool will see this and that they will come up with a solution.  I own two MFT 1080's the 55 saw and a Rotex all purchased in Dec  '06.  I wanted to upgrade, buy the new fence and rail system and install it into my MFT 1080 table.

I saw the new table at my local dealer, they made a few improvements, the whole setup looks much beefier. Maybe easier to square parts, although I nave never used it myself yet.

Anyway I called Festool USA HQ in Indiana a few months ago when the new table came out, and the tech support guy said there is no way to install the new fence and rail system on the previous 1080 table. The extrusions for the new table - the table frame itself, is completely different and the old festool guide rail brackets will not fit on the new table, and vice versa.

I am not a little miffed at Festool about this, because I am forced to purchase a whole new table for their new rail and fence setup and that just turns me off.   I feel that they are not interested in supporting their previous customers who have spent thousands of dollars in old table equipment, and with a new improvement like this I feel that they have thrown me overboard by not making the new fence and rail retro - fitable.  I have about three grand into their equipment right now.  And not being able to retro fit my MFT 1080 is a reason why I am seriously considering buying a table saw instead of the new festool table. Because if I have to pay ANOTHER 600 plus dollars for a new table, after just buying two tables less than two years ago, I am asking myself, why should I, if I can buy a brand new 3 hp cabinet saw with a cast iron top for less than a grand that is guaranteed to make square repeatable cuts?

I even asked the USA HQ if I could purchase the new extruded aluminum rails separately - the table frames from Festool, and retro fit my old table parts to the new rails, so the new fence would fit, and they would not even do that.  I felt that they want to punish me, one of their loyal customers, by making me buy a whole new table to get the new fence and rail.

I did examine the new table frame closely and it is definitely an improvement, it appears to be a dovetail design which would imply that it holds the fence and rail more securely and is more self aligning which is great.  Yet one would think that if the new rail and fence system can not fit into the old 1080 non dovetail extrusions, that the most logical, helpful, cheapest, sensible and customer appreciative and grateful thing the people at Festool could have done for their LOYAL, PAYING CUSTOMERS, would have been to design an adapter jig, so that one could adapt the new fence and rail system to the old table. Either that, or at least make their new extrusions available to mft 1080 customers so we can retro fit. Obviously their loyal customer base is not worth it to the CEO of Festool over in Germany, for him to order his engineering staff to do either, and instead chose to gouge his loyal customers for the price of an entire new table.  Sorry to be so blunt, but that's how I feel and I hope the CEO of Festool reads this.

Their system is billed as being modular and upgradable (that's what a direct, factory employed festool sales rep told me at the Detroit woodworking show in 2006 when I bought into the system), and they just proved the opposite to me by not making MFT3 parts interchangeable with the mft 1080.

So now, even though I am considering purchasing the new MFT3, (and even if I did not own the older table), I am afraid to buy the new MFT table because what if they come out with a design improvement on their new table a year from now, and I really want it, and I can't retro fit it and have to buy a brand new entire table a year later to get a small improvement? I can either keep my old table and let it collect dust, or sell it on ebay (which cheapens the MFT product line to consumers and ultimately will harm festool reputation once they see dozens of MFT's on ebay). At least with a table saw, you can buy jigs and fixtures from either the TS maker or third parties, to improve performance and add various jobs you can do. But with an MFT, you are locked into and dependent on Festool for upgrades, and they seem to view their MFT line as a monopoly by not supporting their older MFT line by not making design improvements and parts interchangeable or come up with interchangeability solutions. It all seems extremely stingy when they come up with new ideas, you have to pay for the new idea plus several times over, to get the improvement, when it comes to the MFT tables.

I also just found out today that Festool only promises to provide replacement parts for their tools for only seven years, which means if my saw goes dead and I need a new motor, instead of getting it repaired I have to buy a brand new expensive saw, which is very discouraging for me to find out, especially since these tools are so expensive.

So I would like to pose a direct question to the CEO of Festool Corporation.  And that is, given the above, why should I buy an MFT3 table instead of a table saw?

They no doubt make fine power tools, and I'm thinking about buying their OF 1400 router, but I have definitely been turned off by the MFT line because of this. If I can find a router almost as good as the festool I will likely buy the cheaper one.

So I would be really curious to see what anyone from Festool (or the CEO, if he is not too busy over there in Germany) has to say about the above, especially since I am ready to make some new major purchases in tools within the next week.

 

[greg mann]

Your 1080s may only be a year or two old but the system has been out for quite a long time. This is a little like the saying that it is never a good time to buy a computer because changes will make it obselete in short order. The 1080 has been improved upon but is not rendered useless by the updates. Sometimes, in the process of continuous improvement, backwards compatibility gets sacrificed. I have an older Rotex. Should I be pissed that I can't make it into a new one? Or the 1972 Suburban I used to own. It didn't have folding rear seats like the ones that came out a couple years later. Heck, if Henry Ford had thought of it he could have made the Taurus instead of the Model T. These things happen. Being in manufacturing I can tell you that Festool would have been more that happy to stay with the old design if they could have made new products work within its limitations. It is always more expensive to re-tool and replace an existing product with a new one than to keep on cranking out the old one.

The cost of making adapters would be very expensive and the end result would probably not be what you really want. I believe we will see that there will be a host of new products that would never have been possible without a re-design of the table. Sell yours on Ebay if you want. You will recover far more of your investment than any other tool brand could approach and use the proceeds to soften the pain of upgrading. Trust me, that pain will go away in a few years when you gain new capabilities from having a system with features newly minted. I decided to keep my 1080 and add the new MFT/3. Over time, I expect to gravitate to whichever one does certain tasks best and use the other for things that make no difference. Presently, I am cutting and assembling on the new one and sanding and assembling on the old. They are both still set up with the rails. I remove a rail if it makes sense and never fret about setting it back up, just put it against the stops, toss a square against the rail to confirm it, and go. I never seem to have the issues so often detailed by others. Guess I'm just lucky.

As for your cabinet saw, do as you please. I see that Delta has announced a new Unisaw. Left-tilt. Go figure. I guess anyone who wants to add that brand to their stable will need to re-make all the jigs that relied on a right tilt design to work.

 

[Frans]

Nadsab,

While you may consider your MFT1080's a relatively new product, it has been in production for a fairly long time. I believe the first products using those same side rails were made in the eighties, maybe even before that. Since 2004 Festool started converting its line of tools to the new side rail, starting with the CS50 table saw (NAINA) and later the CS70 tablesaw, CMS system and finally the MFT/3. The same goes for their guiderail. There are things you can do with the FS/2 that you couldn't with the original FS guides. They were first introduced in 1964, the FS/2 in 2003.

The new fence used on the MFT/3 isn't very new though, just the part that connects it to the side rail. The fence was also used on the Basis system, which has the same side profiles as the MFT1080. You might be able to get one in Europe or Australia. I think I remember some forum members here having ordered a bunch of them to the US. It's called Basis LA 650, part no. 489675.

Frans

 

[honeydoman]

So now, even though I am considering purchasing the new MFT3, (and even if I did not own the older table), I am afraid to buy the new MFT table because what if they come out with a design improvement on their new table a year from now, and I really want it, and I can't retro fit it and have to buy a brand new entire table a year later to get a small improvement? I can either keep my old table and let it collect dust, or sell it on ebay (which cheapens the MFT product line to consumers and ultimately will harm festool reputation once they see dozens of MFT's on ebay). At least with a table saw, you can buy jigs and fixtures from either the TS maker or third parties, to improve performance and add various jobs you can do. But with an MFT, you are locked into and dependent on Festool for upgrades, and they seem to view their MFT line as a monopoly by not supporting their older MFT line by not making design improvements and parts interchangeable or come up with interchangeability solutions. It all seems extremely stingy when they come up with new ideas, you have to pay for the new idea plus several times over, to get the improvement, when it comes to the MFT tables.

things change all the time... otherwise we would still be driving an old 55 ford waiting for whatever.  tools change ideas get better etc.  sell the old tables on ebay you should be able to get a good price for them. 

the new table is excellent and is much easier to use especially the clip on guide. etc.  if I waited for this or that I would have my old electric drill from craftsman and waiting.

I buy tools.  I buy 12 v  then 14 volts come out.. great buy them  then 18 volts sets... buy them  great  then 24 volts.... I waited.... now tools are going to 10.4 volts mini etc.  on and on and on.

I do this for a living and have bought a sh#t load of tools always the next and best thing.... only to find out something new is on its way.

if you want it charge it!!!

I can tell you this... they will not be revising the mft3 for some time , like a long time,,, like many moons.  so bit the bullit if you want it... remember when you bought the 1080 and how cool that table was?  it was the greatest?

I bought the 1080 back in january.... then the mft came out on may... bought that...  one for shop and one for my van for jobs.

 

[bill-e]

How timely.  I logged onto FOG today to ask if I could use the MFT/3 fence on my 1080's  Imagine my surprise to find this thread.

I am also disappointed that the fence is not compatible.  I'm not angry, that's just the way it is.  I cant afford to nor justify ditching my two 1080's for MFT/3's and the 1080 is still a great tool but it's biggest weakness is the fence it it would have been nice to be able to retrofit one.

Perhaps someone who owns both 1080 and MFT/3 could determine if the fence could be modified to fit with a little grinding, filing or the like?

 

[nclemmons]

I have a 1080.  I also purchased the LA-650 fence which is very similar to the MFT/3 fence with a different mounting bracket for the 1080. 

If anyone is interested, I'd be glad to sell the LA-650 fence becasue I find that I actually like the 1080 fence for what I do. 
I paid $139 for the fence, and $25 for the flip stop.  Let me know via PM.  It is in new condition.

neil

 

[Bob Marino]

I know I am not the most unbiased person in the world concerning Festool, but I take strong exception to your basic premise - that somehow Festool's marketing plan includes making older models incompatible with newer models. I think it's exactly the opposite - Festool goes out of their way to make the newer models as compatible with older models as they can - and still have something that's a significant improvement. Ad others have said, the MFT's have been around for a long time (offhand, how long I don't exactly know) but the "3" in the MFT/3 stands for the third incarnation  of the MFT and in twenty or so years, they ain't a lot of redesigning/changes.
And I am sure the redesign for the MFT was "in the works" for quite some time as Festool continually researches and improves their current tools, but what prompted the very early and almost unannounced introduction of the MFT/3 was the prohibitive cost of retooling/refurbishing the "broken" tools used to manufacture the MFT's.
But the MFT/3's improvements were were well researched
- 3" taller - better suited to "most" woodworkers.
- lighter in weight, aiding portability.
- smaller footprint, yet wider crosscutting capacity.
- more robust  and versatile fence and miter gauge.
- V grooves for future accessories.
- easier to square.
With all of that, you can still use all the existing clamps and clamping elements as well as the Extension  Table.
Festool ain't perfect, as I can't answer all the issues, and folks do have legitimate issues/concerns here, but planned obsolesence isn't one of them.

Bob

 

[nickao]

I agree Bob with everything you said.

BUT, it would not take much for Festool to make an adapter "V groove to t slot  adapter" so the fence and anything that works in the V groove would work in a T slot. The  reason not to make such a device is a business decision to get everyone to the MFT/3. I know they would sell loads of new fences if they had an adapter for the old tables.

Many people would pay 150.00-200.00 maybe more for the new fence if it would would work on the old table. That obviously would cut down on some MFT/3 sales. The diehards would buy the new table anyway, but the people that are just to cost conscience or their mft's are not old enough to warrant a complete change are a huge number of potential clients. Clients that would buy a new fence that adapts to the old table.

It seems Festool took one approach, but it has miffed quite a few mft purchasers. They had the LA 650 like one poster said so Festool could come out with a newer version of that. Its comparable to the mft/3 fence and works on the old table. So a precedent has already been set. I think Festool should come up with something like that. I hear this complaint more than most, except for maybe the kapex complaints. But this is not a flaw in a tool, but a business decision that made so many Festool users mad which people seem to take even more personally then a tool that just did not quite work right. Over all it really is a pretty simple thing to make happen in comparison to a power tool with the UL listing, etc.

Nickao

 

[bill-e]

- 3" taller - better suited to "most" woodworkers.

That proves the point!  They are forcing me to buy the Festool step stool if I ever want to update to the MFT/3  ;D

 

[honeydoman]

Bill-E...

that was a good one!!!!

 

[Bob Marino]

I agree Bob with everything you said.

BUT, it would not take much for Festool to make an adapter "V groove to t slot  adapter" so the fence and anything that works in the V groove would work in a T slot. The  reason not to make such a device is a business decision to get everyone to the MFT/3. I know they would sell loads of new fences if they had an adapter for the old tables.

Many people would pay 150.00-200.00 maybe more for the new fence if it would would work on the old table. That obviously would cut down on some MFT/3 sales. The diehards would buy the new table anyway, but the people that are just to cost conscience or their mft's are not old enough to warrant a complete change are a huge number of potential clients. Clients that would buy a new fence that adapts to the old table.

It seems Festool took one approach, but it has miffed quite a few mft purchasers. They had the LA 650 like one poster said so Festool could come out with a newer version of that. Its comparable to the mft/3 fence and works on the old table. So a precedent has already been set. I think Festool should come up with something like that. I hear this complaint more than most, except for maybe the kapex complaints. But this is not a flaw in a tool, but a business decision that made so many Festool users mad which people seem to take even more personally then a tool that just did not quite work right. Over all it really is a pretty simple thing to make happen in comparison to a power tool with the UL listing, etc.

Nickao

Nick,

Funny, I think I agree with you too - just not 100%. I do think having some type of "V groove to slot adapter" would be a good thing. IIRC, the 650 fence was "sold" to the USA market from extras they had from the BASIS units. Anyhow, I can understand how this could "miff" some customers off. But I still hold that Festool, at least as much, if not more than, the better companies, strives to keep their line of tools and accessories compatible to older models. Examples are there - look at he earlier generation guide rails - they work perfectly well with the newer design.
  My response was more to the OP.

Bob

 

[nickao]

As far as compatibility I see the fence on the MFT 1080 to the  MFT 3 as the only issue with any of the Festools. I am sure others may have some issues, I can't off hand think of any though.. Personally it is not an issue for me.

All the clamps work the same so if I ever did get an MFT/3 for myself I would be happy as I generally use the MFT's as work and clamp tables and rarely if ever use the fence on the table. I was speaking on some other users known complaints.

Nick

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Different people = different views.  When I learned that the "old" MFTs were going out of production, I scrambled to buy 2 more 800s to add to my exising 1080.  I've had no problems with the fence system.  My solution to getting 90 degree cuts is use of a Woodpeckers 18" precision triangle square to check the setup.  Most of the time, no adjustments are needed despite my removing at least the Guide Rail system frequently for other setups.  Since I am only 5'8" I don't need the additional height of the MFT3.  I concur with many of the comments about the continuing nature of changing products, if improvement is a goal.

Dave R.

 

[honeydoman]

I just realized that the title to your thread is wrong.  Since festool is a german company.... your title should be:

My Knockworst with festool and MFT-3 - 1080 Compatibility........  just a lol thought for the day.