new festool mitre saw rummer

[daviesgadget]

here in the UK we have the --symmetric festool mitre saw, not so popular as it has limited cutting capacity [but still an excellant machine]--i have been putting off buying the symmetric mitre saw for some time as various festool reps over the last year, hinted of a new super uprated version of this mitre saw ---bigger better and know doubt more expensive---. i,ve looked over your US site for some time now [fantastic infomation thanks] and you guys/gals don't seem to have even the current symmetric mitre saw available, chop saw's--mitre saw's--compound saw's etc seem to me to be your bread and butter.......i also have the cms saw table [10 month now] used on site most weeks hurry up and get it in the US so i can pinch all your in use tips as i do with the ts55--guide  rail--mft--mfs etc---great site

 

[Lou Miller]

i,ve looked over your US site for some time now [fantastic infomation thanks] and you guys/gals don't seem to have even the current symmetric mitre saw available, chop saw's--mitre saw's--compound saw's etc seem to me to be your bread and butter.......

Bread and butter? Yeah, for a lot of years, a miter saw was the most important tool I own. Its still important, but not anywhere near as important as it used to be. Right now its a close close between my TS55 and my General 350 as my most important tools. I need to buy another miter saw before March gets here and I really wish that Festool had one available here so I could at least add theirs to the short list of ones I'm considering. Right now, its down to three, 12" Bosch SCMS, 12" Makita SCMS, and the 12" Hitachi SCMS. The Bosch would be a no-brainer if it weren't for all the negative reviews it gets. 

 

[Per Swenson]

Lou,

With out really taking the Focus off of festool

I must say this,  I own a bunch of them. (miter saws)

I have used most all of them.

And right now, this minute , today, Makita 12 scms is

the only one I would buy again.

Unless of course you have small jobs...

Then this is the ticket...http://www.amazon.com/Makita-LS0714...B000AU1VJE/ref=pd_ybh_a_3/102-2031238-9252956

All of this means nothing, because we know how fast that KAPEX

will land on these shores.

In the mean time I gotta eat.

Per

 

[Bob]

I like to eat too.  I just bought my last sliding miter saw.  A german one.  Bosch 12, front controls, stupid laser and all,  Not enough time to wait.  Still have my old 10" makita...great saw.  It will end up in the shop.

 

[Lou Miller]

Lou,

With out really taking the Focus off of festool

I must say this,  I own a bunch of them. (miter saws)

I have used most all of them.

And right now, this minute , today, Makita 12 scms is

the only one I would buy again.

Unless of course you have small jobs...

Then this is the ticket...http://www.amazon.com/Makita-LS0714...B000AU1VJE/ref=pd_ybh_a_3/102-2031238-9252956

All of this means nothing, because we know how fast that KAPEX

will land on these shores.

In the mean time I gotta eat.

Per

I agree on the eating part... I like to eat

Anyway, the thing that bothers me about the Makitas is the angle indicator and its location. I've been using a 1013 that belongs to a customer lately. Its a nice saw, but that damn indicator is the most moronic thing I've ever seen. On the 1013, you also have to deal with that puny little fence. At least with the 12", you get the attachment for the full hieght fence.

 

[Lou Miller]

I like to eat too.  I just bought my last sliding miter saw.  A german one.  Bosch 12, front controls, stupid laser and all,  Not enough time to wait.  Still have my old 10" makita...great saw.  It will end up in the shop.

That Bosch saw is German in name only. Unless made in China means the same thing as made in Germany... Bosch is still a very good tool company, but they are guilty of trying to compete with the lesser quality level of tools in terms of price. This causes them to let a whole lot more defects roll of their lines than in the past. I still own a ton of their tools and have been happy with most of them. However, there is an increasing number of duds that come from Bosch. Read the reviews on the Colt router for example. Seems as though they are selling as many bad ones as they are good ones. I went through 4 bad ones before I gave up.

Problem is, the same problems occur with Porter Cable (maybe even more with them), Dewalt is total junk, Delta is the biggest piece of garbage on the market, Makita is good on some tools and lousy on others, Rigid is Ryobi with an orange suit and higher price tag. The other tool makers being so hit and miss is one of the primary reasons I turned to Festool. Pretty soon, most of the other companies are going to be producing Ryobi level crap just so they can claim the best price on things. So it'll be their junk vs. Festool, Metabo, Fein, etc. Festool just needs to be expediant in getting tools over here.

 

[mysterium]

Lou,

That was a brutal description of the tool makers of today, and a dismal view of the future.  I'd like to argue with you about this one.....  I really would like to argue with you on this one.......

However unfortunately I think you are correct....

But I also feel that our expectations today are much higher than what they where in the past. 

Thirty years ago I was thrilled to have a shop of Craftsman tools; a router, a router table, circle saw, & 10" table saw.  I had Black & Decker tools; saber saw & drill.  I had a few Rockwell "green line" tools;  a belt sander & a router.    And "dreamed" of have more than the two Rockwell "grey line" tools I owned; a Speed Block & a power block plane  And a 10" DeWalt RAS, a Toolcraft drill press, a 1/2" &  3/4" spindle shaper & a Sprunger jointer.  These were "top quality" made in the USA tools that were used to build houses & on par with ones my piers in the trades where using. 

I can remember when all my buddy's went over to our friends cabinet shop..... drinking beers standing in saw dust up to our knees... admiring this "completely new concept" an aftermarket Biesemeyer fence he put on his 12" Craftsman table saw.  We thought the fence was the slickest gadget to come along in years....  Later I put a Delta vacuum on the 16" DeWalt at my lumber yard.  My friends in the trades thought I lost my mind spending money on a vacuum when a grain shovel worked just fine...

I'm not sure if my expectations have changed... 

Or that we in the USA by chasing the lowest price thru our consumerism, chased all the old "made in the USA" manufactures to China... so now these manufactures are just old familiar names "not so made in the USA".

And some of us started chasing quality... and in the process found a better way.

jim

 

[Lou Miller]

But I also feel that our expectations today are much higher than what they where in the past. 

I don't know if I agree 100% with that. Like you, I started out with mostly older tools. Those tools would be considered dinosaurs today. Today's tools are better because technology has improved by leaps and bounds. Tools today are packed with more features and gadgets, etc. However, are they any better? For example, one of the first tools I bought when I started building homes was a Skil worm drive. That was a pretty bare bones tool. A heavy duty motor and gear system that drove a spinning blade. No dust collection, no fancy gadgets of any kind. Things is, I still have that saw and use it pretty regularly. It works as good today as it did the day I bought it. Give me one of those fancy PC mag saws today and I bet you I kill it within a year making the same cuts that my Skil has over the years. The durability just isn't there with today's tools.

Sure, our expectations are higher because we've come to appreciate all the gadgets and stuff. However, what about the basic fundamentals of when you pull the trigger, the tools starts? A lot of these gadgets I could very easily do without. Like I've said before on here, and other forums, I started out with a worm drive and a chalk line. I built some really good looking stuff with basic tools too.

I tend to think the durability is there with Festool though. I don't know for sure, ask me in five years and I'll tell you honestly. So far, the only proiblem I have with Festool is the pads for their sanders wear out too fast. Everything else seems fine and I've pushed the tools pretty hard. I really appreciate all the thought that went into the tools and the features they have. However, my main reason for buying them is that I believe they'll hold up far longer than the typical stuff being sold here today.

I'm not sure if my expectations have changed... 

Or that we in the USA by chasing the lowest price thru our consumerism, chased all the old "made in the USA" manufactures to China... so now these manufactures are just old familiar names "not so made in the USA".

We in the USA are guilty as charged. This is one of the biggest reasons I won't shop at Walmart or Home Depot (well I do go there for small things when everyone else is closed). The American consumer is to blame more than anything else, but these types of stores fed the fire and then some. Its rare today that anyone says that they will forego price in order to get quality. Its almost always the other way around. While I'm an American and would love to buy American made goods, its not only about national pride or anything like that with me. I just want tools that will last and hold up. If I want garbage that breaks down constantly, I'll go to HD and buy Dewalt. I already have a huge collection of Dewalt tools that aren't worth a hill of beans, what's a few more...

 

[ccmviking]

Dewalt by no means is my favorite brand but I do own some of them and they work well for me.  I have no brand loyalty and buy each specific tool for what I need it to do.  I rarely ever consider price in the equation.  I do have the Dewalt DW716 (with the Chopmaster 12" blade) and find it to be the only saw that fits my needs right now.  The new CMS line from Dewalt is manufactured in Mexico and is lower quality in casting quality etc. than the DW708, etc. that it replaced.  The new saws are not cheaper than the old higher quality USA made ones so I'm not sure if it's because they had diminishing profits, or just wanted higher profits (difference between forced to or wanted to).  I've said before that the Makita is the highest quality unit, smooth precision casting and machining, etc., but it can't cut 5.25"+ molding standing on the fence.  I get jobs where I have to change all the base and casing in a house (3000 sq. ft. +)  where I'm removing small base and adding 5-1/4" to 6" molding, also large crown 4+ inches.  The Dewalt is the only saw that allows me to stand this molding up against the fence and cut.  The laser on the saw can be adjusted to where the accuracy is the best I've seen and it's always on.  This allows me to in most cases set the saw at the angle I need (23, 45, 46, etc.) and for the most part just leave it there.  I mark a simple little pencil dash on my workpiece and using the laser (you guys would have to try this laser before you knock it) can flip my molding whichever way I want (upright or upside down) to get the correct inside/outside/left/right miter (the only thing to consider is blade kerf in relationship to the laser if on left or right of the blade).  I would put money on the fact that nobody could base out a house with the accuracy and speed that I can using larges base with another brand of saw.  The motor and drive design of the 12" dewalt allows this to happen.  It might now last 5+ years (who knows) but I don't really give a crap.  It gets the job done perfectly and paid for itself within one to two days.  If something else comes out that has better dust collection, smoother running, smoother and more accurate rotating and angle stops I'd buy it.  It just doesn't exist yet. 

 

[mysterium]

Lou,

Your post made me smile.  I thinks we agree way more than we disagree.

Your line "Like I've said before on here, and other forums, I started out with a worm drive and a chalk line. I built some really good looking stuff with basic tools too. " 

And "yea we built some really good stuff from basic tools"

I had added a comment that my friends used Skil saws but took it out after I read it...  And you had to zing me on the Skil saw 

No one in his right mind would argue about the durability of a Skil worm drive.  But than again with it's gears, all metal construction it weighed about 100lbs.  I'm sure this saw contributed to your bad back.    For me it was never a one-handed saw....  & to this day the blade scares the hell out of me 'cause it's on the "wrong" side...

Durability is important, but as a society we seem to value "new".  Thus to many... 3 new shiny _____ is better than 1 old but durable.  I'm not saying I agree with this, but m"ass" marketing is what we are getting.

"Lighter.... Faster....  Cheaper....  Which two do you want?" 

jim

 

[Dan Clark]

"Lighter.... Faster....  Cheaper....  Which two do you want?" 

Jim,

I think it's human nature (especially American humans) to want a good deal.  I'm a software developer.  We get same thing in my world.  The customer wants it perfect, low cost, and now!  The standing joke is "So you want it cheap, good, and quick.  Pick two."

Dan.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

I started out with a shop full of Craftsman tools, and then "graduated" to other more expensive brands, and thought I had found tool nirvanna when I had my first opportunity to work with some Milwaukee, PC and Bosch tools.  To me SOME (not all) of those old Craftsman and other American brands continue to be desirable because they are durable and their basic functions are accurate.  I have a Craftsman commercial die grinder that has saved the day (and job) innumerable times.  I still miss my old Craftsman circular saw that had a full metal case, ergonomically placed handles, convenient and effective depth and bevel controls, and the blade "on the wrong side"  just as I preferred it because I am a lefty, despite having Festool's TS 55 and a Skilsaw for rough work.  Everything about my ancient Delta jointer worked perfectly - the fence and tables were flat, smooth and square, unlike many on more recent jointers by many manufacturers.  Even the high priced Inca jointer/planer that replaced that Delta does not as precise a fence.  My ancient Milwaukee Sawzall still runs as smoothly and quietly as ever, even though its case is partially corroded away, and has never lacked for  power despite its relatively low Amp rating compared to many of today's competition.  In its former life with a farm equipment construction crew, that Sawzall withstood frequent drops from lazy or careless crew members working on ladders inside silos.  To me, good design plus quality materials and manufacturing processes are needed to make the products I want to use and keep using.  Although many of the tools offered today include some clever and potentially helpful features, they aren't of much real value if they are not reliably accurate and repeatable.  What good is a laser guide if it cannot be trusted, or a router edge guide adjustment mechanism that binds up on its flexible, flimsy guide rods?  A better quality blade rather than a laser is what I would rather have, but that is not where the mass marketing and customer interest (not us) is today.  I hope that Festool does not go down the same road as many other once good brands have done.

 

[Lou Miller]

No one in his right mind would argue about the durability of a Skil worm drive.  But than again with it's gears, all metal construction it weighed about 100lbs.  I'm sure this saw contributed to your bad back.     For me it was never a one-handed saw....  & to this day the blade scares the hell out of me 'cause it's on the "wrong" side...

Hmmm... Where do I start? I think those saws weigh about 15-20 lbs. Sure, a heck of a lot heavier than a sidewinder, but not that heavy, IMO. I don't think I ever used two hands with it. Truth is, I wouldn't know where to put the second hand. Its almost like an extension of my right arm. Besides, when you're up on a 12/12 pitch doing sheething, you learn real quick how to use a saw with one hand. I don't think the saw had anything to do with my back. Now letting my Irish and Polish temper get the better of me and lifting a 10" Oliver Jointer by myself, that did my back in. The wrong side, eh? I can't tell you how many arguments I've seen in bars after work about this. I'm firmly entrenched in the camp that believe left bladed saws are the best way to go. I'm still getting used to the TS55 being on the right side. Just doesn't feel natural to me, but you don't need to see the blade, so its not too bad. I wouldn't trade in my TS55 for anything, but the old reliable Skilsaw will always be in the truck right next to it.

 

[mysterium]

Lou,

15 to 20 lbs..... is way heavy in the "12 oz. school of arm bending" that I attend regularly  ;D

jim

 

[Bob]

Let's see.  I am 57 yrs old.  Just bought the bosch saw.  In all the current reviews I could find it is the best saw on the market.  I made my first cuts today and I love the thing.  Up front controls, calabrated well right out of the box, great german design...this one is well made...no flaws.  I am too old to wait for festool.  I've had my 10" Maketa forever and it is still great but the Bosch beats it hands down.  Nice to think about a perfect world of festools but I have to have the best now.  I am happy with my new tool.  In a few years I won't be able to see the difference....lol.

As my memory tells it there were also alot of bad tools in the old days.  I think the reason tools are built so much worse is that there are more handymen out there who like to get the tool for christmas and never use it. Just like pickup trucks used to be plain and $3500. ran forever-6 stick.  Those days are gone...whose to blame? 

 

[Lou Miller]

Bob, where are you reading these reviews at? Amazon? No offense to anyone, but the majority of those reviews at Amazon aren't worth a hill of beans. A large portion of them are homeowners that wouldn't know the difference between a decent saw and a pile of junk.

The magazines gave it great reviews. Mostly because of the features, which are impressive. Those magazine reviews don't bother to put the tool through a proper test though.

Go read some of the pro forums and see what real feelings on the Bosch saws are. Like I said, I have a 12" non-slider and its fine. However, there are a ton of them out there that aren't very good. If you're happy with yours, then I'm happy for you. Doesn't change the fact that there have been a lot of problems with this current saw. I know 3 contractors that have one and none of them are happy with it. Their word means 1000 times more to me than any review on Amazon.

The biggest complaint is the tables aren't lined up correctly. Dust collection is worthless, it is on mine too. Accuracy has been a real sticking point with a lot of people too. Oh, and I misspoke earlier, its not made in China, its Taiwan.

Having said all of the above, I'm still considering getting one. Just not from an online vendor like Amazon. If I get one, it'll be from a brick and mortar outfit.

 

[Bob]

Fine Woodworking.  I have not used it much since I bought it but it seems fine to me. 

 

[Dan Clark]

...
The biggest complaint is the tables aren't lined up correctly. Dust collection is worthless, it is on mine too. Accuracy has been a real sticking point with a lot of people too. ...

Lou,

I have the Bosch 4410L.  I think it's a pretty good saw and fairly accurate.  That said, I have one problem with mine - the left wing extension isn't lined up with the main table.  It's somewhere between 1/32 to 1/16" too high.  It may just be an adjustment thing, though.  Is that what you your referring to when you wrote, "...aren't line up correctly..."?

Dan.

 

[Lou Miller]

...
The biggest complaint is the tables aren't lined up correctly. Dust collection is worthless, it is on mine too. Accuracy has been a real sticking point with a lot of people too. ...

Lou,

I have the Bosch 4410L.  I think it's a pretty good saw and fairly accurate.  That said, I have one problem with mine - the left wing extension isn't lined up with the main table.  It's somewhere between 1/32 to 1/16" too high.   It may just be an adjustment thing, though.   Is that what you your referring to when you wrote, "...aren't line up correctly..."?

Dan.

Yes. To my knowledge, there isn't a way to adjust that.

 

[Barry]

After having a hitatchi 10" CMS withe the same problem of out of plane tables I bought the Makita SCMS because the table is a one piece.  I believe this helps a great deal with accurage cuts.  Not that I got rid of my Hitatchi, it is my construction chop saw now and the makita stays in the shop for accurate cuts..