North American Festool VAC-SYS

[Connollyir]

This is my first post here, although I have been reading the forums for a good while. I own IRC Custom Woodwork and I build cabinets, furniture, interior/exterior woodwork and trim.

I own a bunch of Festool products and I was very disappointed to find out that the Vac-Sys would not be coming to the United States due to UL issues. I was very interested in the 360* dual-axis maneuverability and quick action clamping, like a modern patternmakers vice for my MFT.

I have managed to find another system very similar to Festool's from a German company, Schmalz Inc. I spoke with Mason Nicholson, a marketing coordinator, and he was very helpful in explaining the different systems available and answering technical questions I had. Their vacuum generator comes in what seems to be a pretty decent case, however I will probably disassemble it and fit the components into a systainer. I plan to do the same with a Senco 1010 air compressor that is my go-to when I am running trim. I will document the process for both by video and post it for anyone who might be interested, though I apologize in advance for the poor videography.

I have attached the quote that I got and the catalog for Schmalz. The shipping was free. I DO NOT have the system yet so I can't personally review it, but hopefully will in a few months.

schmalz.com
mason.nicholson@schmalz.us

If you mention me, I think they send out free stuff FYI.

- Ian Connolly

 

[Runhard]

You should also check out Tool-Home, I know they have a vac-system. I can't remember the details, but Tom Bellemare is a member here and he could help you out.

Daniel

 

[tjbnwi]

Link to the system Tom sells;

http://www.tool-home.com/products/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=vacuum+clamp&x=0&y=0

(He is an excellent person to deal with by the way.)

Tom

 

[semenza]

Hi Ian,

Welcome to the FOG!  [smile]

Seth

 

[Connollyir]

Link to the system Tom sells;

http://www.tool-home.com/products/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=vacuum+clamp&x=0&y=0

(He is an excellent person to deal with by the way.)

Tom

You should also check out Tool-Home, I know they have a vac-system. I can't remember the details, but Tom Bellemare is a member here and he could help you out.

Daniel

Thanks for the additional options... Tom, have you actually used the system? If you did what were your thoughts? I have never used a vacuum clamp before so this is new territory for me and a big investment.

- Ian

 

[tbellemare]

I have a Schmalz vacuum clamp and it is incredibly strong. I stuck a 2' x 4' x 3/4" piece of MDF to mine and couldn't pull it off. The MFT/3 that I had the unit stuck to (also by vacuum) just moved. Yes, you can stick it to the work surface by vacuum simultaneously.

They make basically two models, one runs on a vacuum pump and the other uses compressed air.

The normal, 160 mm x 160 mm foot comes with sealing cord that allows the user to change the effective shape also.

Personally, I would opt for a Robinair or other vacuum pump rather than the German, oil-free model but that's just me being frugal.

Tom

 

[MrToolJunkie]

I have a Schmalz vacuum clamp and it is incredibly strong. I stuck a 2' x 4' x 3/4" piece of MDF to mine and couldn't pull it off. The MFT/3 that I had the unit stuck to (also by vacuum) just moved. Yes, you can stick it to the work surface by vacuum simultaneously.

They make basically two models, one runs on a vacuum pump and the other uses compressed air.

The normal, 160 mm x 160 mm foot comes with sealing cord that allows the user to change the effective shape also.

Personally, I would opt for a Robinair or other vacuum pump rather than the German, oil-free model but that's just me being frugal.

Tom

Tom,

Did you ever post any videos of the system? 

Scot

 

[tbellemare]

I haven't yet, Scot but it sounds like maybe I should.

Below, is a 4' x 2' x 3/4" piece of MDF that I stuck to the clamp. I had the clamp suctioned to a 3/4" piece of acrylic (paper side) that I had clamped to the MFT. I tried to pull the MDF from the clamp and it wouln't budge. It just moved the MFT with it.

[attachimg=#1]

Tom

 

[Connollyir]

I agree, videos are definitely helpful and I would be interested in seeing the system in action. Tom, do you have the venturi model or the vacuum pump? I'm curious how much noise the OEM vac pump setup makes while running. Venturi is not really an option for me due to noise and air demand (my Senco trim compressor is light duty).

I was planning on modifying a sys4 to house a Gast pump and reservoir, but the cost was only marginally cheaper than the Schmalz unit (~$200) so with build time considered they would probably cost me the same. However, being able to integrate seamlessly with my other systainers for transport and professional looks has its own merits...

I'm definitely planning to buy the clamping unit, but still on the fence about the vac pump.

-Ian

 

[tbellemare]

I have the unit that is used with compressed air. It sticks very well.

In retrospect, I would rather have the vacuum pump version. I think I might be able to adapt this one but haven't had time to really get into it. I would go for this Robinair pump. It is a 6 CFM pump vs. the 4 CMH pump that Schmalz sells. I'm sure it would be nice to have their pump but for less than half the price, you get more than twice the pumping. I calculate 6 CFM to be 360 CFH, while 4 CMH comes out to ~141.25 CFH. That makes the smaller one about 40% of the larger.

The larger pump can come in down the line with bigger work pieces when you might want to set up multiple suction plates and suck them to both the work surface and the work piece. You can't have too much vacuum in my opinion and especially when it comes at a reasonable price. I have no doubt that the German pump is real nice to have and it's also oil-less for whatever that's worth.

Maybe someone here knows a reason why an A/C vacuum pump isn't appropriate for this but I can't come up with a reason.

Tom

 

[Connollyir]

Tom - more vac is always better. Thats a pretty good looking pump, what size reservoir would be needed - if any? Most of my information is coming from joewoodworker.com and those systems seem to all include reservoirs.... I don't use veneers or vac bags, I just want a foot pedal controlled clamp.

-Ian

 

[tbellemare]

The only reason I can think of to use a reservoir would be to give the pump a break once the work is secured. It seems like an over-complication to me but maybe I'm wrong or for that matter, my assumption might be wrong. If my guess is correct, it would mean having a high/low pressure switch. If the pressure in the reservoir is low enough (plenty of vacuum), shut off the pump. If it gets too high (not enough vacuum), turn it on again. I guess it could also act as a buffer of some sort?

It seems like there are too many things that can go wrong (KISS) and it would add more possibilities that the work piece could get dropped. I don't know enough about these pumps to know but with a lot of pumps, they don't like starting against a high head. Good A/C systems have time delays so that if there's a power blip, they can bleed back pressure before trying to restart. Cheapo's don't have that and when they get enough power blips, they're toast. I wouldn't feel comfortable having a heavy or dear work piece hovering in air (so to speak) without strong confidence that it would stay there. I would leave the pump running the entire time I had a work piece on the clamp(s). Running a vacuum bag is completely different in my mind...

There's a lot to consider depending on the size/dearness of the work piece and the desired positioning (especially relative to one's feet). It's definitely a quick clamping method though.

On this page are some videos that show the various ways that these vacuum clamps can be used. Videos 055, 090, and 123 are of particular interest to this audience.

Tom

 

[Connollyir]

Simple answers are the best.

Will the pump fit in a systainer? Do you travel with the rig, if so how do you store it?
As far as peddles go, are they vacuum controlled or electrical?

I plan to modify a systainer 3 or 4 to house the pump and connections so it syncs with the rest of my loadout.

Thanks for the info

-Ian

The only reason I can think of to use a reservoir would be to give the pump a break once the work is secured. It seems like an over-complication to me but maybe I'm wrong or for that matter, my assumption might be wrong. If my guess is correct, it would mean having a high/low pressure switch. If the pressure in the reservoir is low enough (plenty of vacuum), shut off the pump. If it gets too high (not enough vacuum), turn it on again. I guess it could also act as a buffer of some sort?

It seems like there are too many things that can go wrong (KISS) and it would add more possibilities that the work piece could get dropped. I don't know enough about these pumps to know but with a lot of pumps, they don't like starting against a high head. Good A/C systems have time delays so that if there's a power blip, they can bleed back pressure before trying to restart. Cheapo's don't have that and when they get enough power blips, they're toast. I wouldn't feel comfortable having a heavy or dear work piece hovering in air (so to speak) without strong confidence that it would stay there. I would leave the pump running the entire time I had a work piece on the clamp(s). Running a vacuum bag is completely different in my mind...

There's a lot to consider depending on the size/dearness of the work piece and the desired positioning (especially relative to one's feet). It's definitely a quick clamping method though.

On this page are some videos that show the various ways that these vacuum clamps can be used. Videos 055, 090, and 123 are of particular interest to this audience.

Tom

 

[tbellemare]

The foot valve controls either the vacuum or compressed air, depending on the system.

For the pump I mentioned above, I think it would be a real tight fit in a SYS 4 but it should fit. The dimensions of the pump are: 9.5" H x 5.5" W x 15" L (247mm x 142mm x 381mm).

I don't travel with mine (yet). I think a SYS 4 would hold everything including the foot valve. A SYS 5, having more headroom, almost certainly would. I should get that Robinair 15600 and see what I can arrange. Maybe I will...

Tom

 

[tbellemare]

A while back, I showed how the air-operated vacuum clamp I have and sell EASILY supports a 4' x 2' x 3/4" slab of MDF above.

I decided that personally, I would rather have the vacuum-operated version so I got one and all of the suction plates plus the high tech German vacuum pump. I also got a Robinair vacuum pump to test a significantly lower investment alternative. I already had the foot valve from the air-operated set up.

My new clamp:

[attachimg=#1]

I did some preliminary tests with both pumps and they both make this clamping system super solid. I was moving the whole table with everything on it trying to jerk the acrylic loose.

This clamping body has an integral vacuum suction plate on the bottom or you can mechanically fasten it with screws or other clamps. I used the integral vacuum suction plate and would normally do the same.

I'll make a video in the next few days to show how it performs and how easy it is to use. I also plan to make a mobile home for it in a systainer.

Stay tuned...

Tom

 

[Rick Christopherson]

My new clamp:

Poor Tom! Poor, poor Tom!!!! To be so close yet just outside your reach.  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

[attachimg=#]

 

[mouppe]

poor Rick...all those systainers and not one T-loc...

[smile]

 

[peter halle]

poor Rick...all those systainers and not one T-loc...

[smile]

You've started it now.  [popcorn]

Peter

 

[leakyroof]

poor Rick...all those systainers and not one T-loc...

[smile]

You've started it now.   [popcorn]

Peter

Nah, they're probably on the other wall of the shop that he DIDN'T take a picture of... [smile]

 

[tjbnwi]

Rick,

I can see the foot switch in your picture. My question is, compressor or vacuum pump? Description of the source please. I recall seeing the vac clamp at the training center, we did not get to play with it.

Tom