OK, what's the deal with lead and asbestos? (HEPA dust extractors)

[moofie]

Hi, gang.  I am a weekend warrior, looking for a new dust collector.  My house is 100 years old, and does have lead paint.  It has some suspicious-looking ceiling tiles.  (pretty sure there's asbestos there.  Only thing I intend to do would be to take them down.)

Here's my question.  I want to be wise and prudent as I work around my house.  I don't expect that I'm going to have the EPA beating down my door.  Do the Festool dust extractors, with HEPA filters provide adequate common-sense protection against hazardous airborne particulates, or do I need to run for a contractor any time I contemplate working on these things?

I understand that the EPA guidelines are, well, not so good at guiding.  I've got some good resources here in my town that talk about how homeowners can work responsibly to mitigate these hazards.  I'm just trying to figure out if I'm cruisin' for a bruisin' without heavy duty containment systems (negative pressure rigs, whatever). 

I'm hoping that I can use a good face mask (the 3M one with the good filters) and maybe a bunny suit for the asbestos.

I read a couple threads from last year, but I'm curious to see what the current thinking is like.  I read the manual for the CT26/36 and was surprised that they said they were not for vacuuming asbestos.  No mention of lead.  (I'm sure this is a liability issue as much as anything).

I understand this can be a touchy subject:  Lots of you folks make your living dealing with this issue, and it doesn't seem like the EPA is making your lives easier.  I'm just hoping I can benefit from your expertise.

Thank you!

 

[LostInTheWood]

You can go here   epa.gov/lead to know what you need to know.    Other than that homeowners are not required to follow RRP rules.   If you want to be safe anyway just follow the general guidelines here (skip to page 13)  http://epa.gov/lead/pubs/sbcomplianceguide.pdf  

Keep kids and pets out of the area.   If you need more details, then describe your project and I'll do my best to help you with the RRP.   I'm sure there are others here that can help too.

Oh and asbestos is an entirely different animal no to be related or confused with lead paint and RRP work.    Don't fool with asbestos.  Let the pro's do the abatement.   

 

[Ken Nagrod]

If you want to deal with the lead paint in your house, no problem using the CT's as long as you seal off the room/area you're working in and collect ALL the debris, wrap it all up so it can't escape, then you're allowed to dispose of with regular trash.  The asbestos can become airborne fibers that you as a homeowner or even a typical contractor cannot contain.  Even with a respirator and a suit, the stuff transfers easily and that's the problem - containment.  That's why the special air handling units, showers, etc.  Best and safest to let the expert remediator handle it all.  Once it's in your lungs, it's permanent!

 

[moofie]

Thank you for the advice!  I'm not too enthused about dealing with the asbestos, but the lead seems more manageable.  Much appreciated! 

 

[Cableaddict]

I came here looking for similar info.

I am taking down a ceiling that I'm 90% sure has asbestos in in. (Brown cellulose tiles from the 1960's)
I cannot possibly afford to pay a specialist to come in.  Plus, a lot of the ceiling already fell, or was pulled down, so the stuff is already everywhere.

All I want to know is:

Do the new HEPA certified Ct vacuums contain asbestos, or put it back into the air?  Does anyone have a definitive answer?

----------

FWIW:  I always use the fleece bags, and I also have glued hepa filters to the outside of my CT's exhaust ports, which not only contains the brushes' carbon dust, but makes the machine even more quiet.  (A highly recommended mod.)

 

[Cableaddict]

Update:

I found a list that shows Asbestos fibers as being  0.7 - 90 microns, so theoretically a sealed HEPA vac (Which the new CT's evidently are) should work well.

Yet, several websites warn that HEPA vacs are not sufficient. They don't go into details.   Are they just being absurdly over-cautious?

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I'm EPA certified for RRP.

From the class I took, the message I got was that if you set up your containment properly, you should not have a great need for a HEPA vac unless you are sanding the lead-containing paint.

Speaking with other contractors who are doing a lot of lead work, the message that I am getting is that, to avoid cross-contamination, they DO NOT allow lead tools to be used for anything other than lead work.

Soooo....... if you are working with lead, treat it like you're working with asbestos. 6 mil poly on the floor, up the walls, set up air locks, etc.... HEPA respirators, Tyvek hooded suits, rubber gloves duct-taped to the Tyvek suit sleeves, boot covers. No one leaves the room until it's clean.....

Many contractors I have spoken with have stated flat-out that they won't bid on projects that might contain Lead. Too many liabilities to justify the potential gains.

In addition to potential EPA fines ($32,000 per infraction, per day), there are also the potential lawsuits from the people who may move into your house and 15 years from now have a child with a learning disability that they may blame on your disturbing the Lead. Regardless of how well you clean, there will likely be measurable Lead levels still in your home.

Anyways, what I'm getting at is, just buying a HEPA vac does not ensure a safe Lead project. Make sure you educate yourself, and make sure that you are ensuring the safety of not only yourself but also of future residents of your home.

Have a great week!
Best,
Tom

 

[Umbro]

Festool sell a vac that they claim contains asbestos.

Haven't read up on it but remember seeing it when I was buying y CT26.

http://www.festool.co.uk/Products/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?pid=584139&name=Special-application-mobile-dust-extractor-CLEANTEX-CTH-26-E-a

To be honest, it's a specialist job for a reason!
What price would you put on your health. You're a long time dead!!!

 

[andvari]

I came here looking for similar info.

I am taking down a ceiling that I'm 90% sure has asbestos in in. (Brown cellulose tiles from the 1960's)

You might be lucky. The type of tiles you describe don't necessarily contain asbestos. Those are usually white or gray. Before I did any work I'd investigate a bit, and get some testing done.

You might find this helpful.

http://inspectapedia.com/sickhouse/asbestoslookA.htm

 

[Cableaddict]

You might be lucky. The type of tiles you describe don't necessarily contain asbestos. Those are usually white or gray. Before I did any work I'd investigate a bit, and get some testing done.

You might find this helpful.

http://inspectapedia.com/sickhouse/asbestoslookA.htm

Thanks, I have seen that site, and many others.  The ones that site shows are exactly what I have (they are brown on the inside, and asbestos can be white-ish, brown, or blue.)  Also, a contractor who has had other tiles tested said these look identical to known bad ones.

Regardless, why take a chance. Heck, I don't want to inhale cellulose fibers, either!
-------------------------------------------

Hoping for the official word from Festool.

I'm VERY curious about the Ct 26 E/ a that Umbro linked. 
It says: "Approved for dust category H and asbestos dust." - and: "For wood dust and dust with MAC values < 0.1 mg/m³ "
Plus they sell a special bag for it, # FIS-CTH.

Is this an older model, made redundant by the new filters?

Is it current, but only available in the UK? If so, can my new USA CT36 be modified to become this model?

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

If it is your house and you are doing the work, you are exempt from following anything.

I still think the EPA is exempt from logical thinking too.

 

[ccarrolladams]

You can go here   epa.gov/lead to know what you need to know.   Other than that homeowners are not required to follow RRP rules.   If you want to be safe anyway just follow the general guidelines here (skip to page 13)  http://epa.gov/lead/pubs/sbcomplianceguide.pdf  

Keep kids and pets out of the area.   If you need more details, then describe your project and I'll do my best to help you with the RRP.   I'm sure there are others here that can help too.

Oh and asbestos is an entirely different animal no to be related or confused with lead paint and RRP work.    Don't fool with asbestos.  Let the pro's do the abatement.    

The USA Federal EPA rules are a minimum. Individual States, Counties and Cities can and often do, make stricter rules.

Therefore, before doing your own lead removal, check with your local building inspectors and public health department.

When the time comes to sell your home, the fact you did your own lead removal could well be something you need to disclose to the buyer. This is a function of the real estate laws of your state.

Please consider the potential future liability before deciding to do your own lead removal.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

If it is your house and you are doing the work, you are exempt from following anything.

I still think the EPA is exempt from logical thinking too.

I agree that he would be free from following the EPA regs.

However, even if you're the homeowner, I would still worry about a future resident coming after you. Put a child with developmental problems in front of a jury and you'll lose every time.

Either way, it has the potential to be a HUGE can of worms. Tread VERY lightly with Lead, and don't even bother with Asbestos, hire it out. It's just not worth the risk.

Best of luck to you!
Tom

 

[Ken Nagrod]

As Tom Gensmer said, the correct method of remediation includes DEDICATED tools.  The CT's sold in the United States have not been certified for asbestos work.  That does not mean they aren't a good choice, but everything connected to the CT will have asbestos fibers within it.  The potential for a cross contamination or release is there.

As Carroll Adams said, check with your local authorities before shooting yourself in the foot (figuratively, because literally aint good either!).  Proper legal disposal is usually the toughest part for the homeowner.

 

[justahobby]

If you do the work yourself (paint or asbestos), maintain a negative pressure in the cleanup zone.  And don't neglect to filter the exhaust air...no need to let any of this stuff in the air for others to breath.  As mentioned above, check your local regs: in my area (USA), VAT over certain square footage required certain levels of containment/ processing.  At 900+ sqft, I had a contractor do it.  If the material is friable, do what you can to have the surface wet to reduce airborne fibers.

If you have air quality testing done during or post removal, understand the testing process and the applicable permissible exposure limits. 

Good luck and take care of the lungs!

 

[ccarrolladams]

Each building and safety and/or health department could well have individual rules for lead and asbestos work.

My suggestion is that these are not practical DIY projects, largely because of future liability.

So, if FOG members want to have the lead removal experience, how about making friends with a certified contractor and joining a crew for a few days. Who knows, working with lead might turn out to be your personal bliss. In which case take all the needed classes, obtain the several required licenses and have at it. Same goes for learning to remove asbestos.

It is no secret I consider the money and time I spent participating in the 2011 Festool Solid Surface class instructed by Steve Bace to be an outstanding investment. By the third hour of working with solid surface material I realized doing so was far from my bliss. Knowing this has made my relationships with the many solid surface contractors I meet each year far better.

During my career I managed many projects which started out with asbestos removal. Despite using the best available contractors those jobs always ran longer than planned and cost far above the original budget. Just one case was a multi-story commercial building containing a late 1920s palace-size movie theater. The original budget was for 3 weeks at a cost of about USA$900,000. Before we finished removing the asbestos so we could deal with lead and everything else, we spent USA$18 million over 22 months. I was horrified, but the various inspectors kept telling me we actually lucked out.

At least a few years later, when my former employer sold that building to investors, all the inspection reports were solid gold.

 

[Cableaddict]

...don't neglect to filter the exhaust air...no need to let any of this stuff in the air for others to breath.....  If the material is friable, do what you can to have the surface wet to reduce airborne fibers.

Good ideas, thanks.  I've got 2 industrial air purifiers running continuously, but didn't think about using water.

ANYWAY:

I still would like the basic answers to my questions, above, from a Festool employee.

Does the current CT36, which is HEPA certified and thus should contain material down to 0.3 microns, fully contain (within HEPA ratings) all asbestos dust, which theoretically will be no smaller than 0.7 microns?

If not, then what is the difference between my machine and the E / a units? 
Can mine be "upgraded" ?
Will using those more expensive bags make a difference?

 

[peter halle]

You might be lucky. The type of tiles you describe don't necessarily contain asbestos. Those are usually white or gray. Before I did any work I'd investigate a bit, and get some testing done.

You might find this helpful.

http://inspectapedia.com/sickhouse/asbestoslookA.htm

Thanks, I have seen that site, and many others.  The ones that site shows are exactly what I have (they are brown on the inside, and asbestos can be white-ish, brown, or blue.)  Also, a contractor who has had other tiles tested said these look identical to known bad ones.

Regardless, why take a chance. Heck, I don't want to inhale cellulose fibers, either!
-------------------------------------------

Hoping for the official word from Festool.

I'm VERY curious about the Ct 26 E/ a that Umbro linked. 
It says: "Approved for dust category H and asbestos dust." - and: "For wood dust and dust with MAC values < 0.1 mg/m³ "
Plus they sell a special bag for it, # FIS-CTH.

Is this an older model, made redundant by the new filters?

Is it current, but only available in the UK? If so, can my new USA CT36 be modified to become this model?

Please don't take this as an official answer from Festool.  Shane's availability to the FOG is very limited this week.  Europe has different models of CT's with different filtering levels.  I have never seen Festool here in NA make claims about the CT's here being acceptable / approved for asbestos work. 

Peter

 

[AlexThePalex]

I'm VERY curious about the Ct 26 E/ a that Umbro linked.  
It says: "Approved for dust category H and asbestos dust." - and: "For wood dust and dust with MAC values < 0.1 mg/m³ "
Plus they sell a special bag for it, # FIS-CTH.

Is this an older model, made redundant by the new filters?

Is it current, but only available in the UK? If so, can my new USA CT36 be modified to become this model?

This is not an older model, it is a brand new model, but designed according to European standards. Standards that don't apply in America because America has its own. In Europe, for vacs there are 3 mayor classes, depending on the filtration needed. L is the lowest, most common class, M is the next step where filtration needs to be a lot higher, and finally class H for hazardous materials that need the best containment. That's why the naming for Festool vacs in Europe is different from America, in America all vacs are named CT, but in Europe they're named CTL, CTM and CTH to specify the dust class for which they are rated.

Sorry, but the CTH models (CTH 26 & CTH 48) and their accessories like the special dust bags, are only available in Europe. You can not order them from America because Festool forbids its dealers to sell tools to other countries. So Europeans can't order ultra cheap sandpaper in the States, and Americans can't buy vacs like the CTH 26 or the CMS system. Only way to circumvent this is to go to another country yourself or ask people you know in other countries to buy and send it to you. But there is no official way through Festool.

If not, then what is the difference between my machine and the E / a units?  
Can mine be "upgraded" ?
Will using those more expensive bags make a difference?

Theorethically, I think your machine could be upgraded. All CT vacs are based on the same parts with some minor differences. When I look at the parts diagrams I don't see any other differences but the filter, filter bags, and the flow detection unit of the CTH. But you won't be able to buy the parts from Festool directly because they're only sold in Europe. Even if you could, it would turn out very costly.

As for the bags, they will make a difference, but most of all, they're meant to be 100% safe when filled and removed from the vac. After all, the H class vacs are meant for hazardous materials.    

I still would like the basic answers to my questions, above, from a Festool employee.

Does the current CT36, which is HEPA certified and thus should contain material down to 0.3 microns, fully contain (within HEPA ratings) all asbestos dust, which theoretically will be no smaller than 0.7 microns?

I'm no Festool employee, but I'm pretty sure they will not confirm you can use them for asbestos. The only thing that's official in America is that all Festool vacs are rated for HEPA, but I believe the HEPA specification doesn't say anything about asbestos.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Asbestos and lead have been blown out of proportion.

Asbestos is pretty harmless as long as you don't turn it into powder and snort it. 

Hell, 1/2 the water mains in most towns are lead pipe......