Out with Parf, Need CNC Service

Redcabin

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Joined
Aug 14, 2022
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How do I find someone to CNC dog holes in either MFT3 or 4'x8'? I'm in the Dallas area. In a perfect world I would try someone with a top or two and get more done if all is good. Guidance on cost and questions to ask would helpful too. I would supply the file, MDF, and router bit.

The Parf Guide System has failed me in my little project. It could be operator error, or not. The holes are square in some places and not in others. This is proven by 4 cut attempts and a Benchdog 450mm square. By doing both carpentry and woodworking I need a wider and longer MFT. The systems of Festool, Benchdog, and Dashboard linking tables look great but they are out of my budget.

My setup is a pair of sawhorses. A pair of torsion boxes 8' long and about 3" x 4" are set on top of the sawhorses. One, two, or three MFT tops are placed across the torsion boxes in a portrait configuration or two in landscape. On one length of one of the torsion boxes the 1-3 tops are fixed in place with 2 each Smart Connect chamfered dogs from TSO on each top into whatever dog holes I want on the torsion box. I managed to bore 20mm dog holes on 96mm centers down the length of one torsion box with Parf.

I attached three tops to this torsion box, used the other torsion as support and sure enough those tops were aligned as proven by a length of 4545 extrusion and chamfered dogs. Assuming the rest of the grids on the 3 tops were square via Parf I thought I had arrived and only needed to perform a 4 cut test. That's when the rails kinda fell off. The 4 cut was on an MFT sized top and it wasn't square. Eventually I checked on the dog holes. They are the problem.

I had bored a lot of offset holes because I'm using Stanton dogs to attach the guide rail. It took some time to check for square on each place a fence/guide rail could be placed. Each place to setup the fence dog and offset Stanton guide rail dog has to have a corresponding square place on the other side of the tops(s). This pretty much stinks.

I had consulted with Roger Kugler who had put out a woodworking podcast. He advised going straight to a CNC. I wanted to prove the concept with Parf for myself first and perhaps see if anyone wanted to buy such a setup. The materials are not big $. I go to Central Hardwoods in Dallas. They suggested I use a water resistant high density MDF. I got some of the 4'x8' Arreis Ultra Naf 3/4" for $57 first, $63 weeks later. Using a fire grade door, Medite, for an MDF didn't make sense to them plus it costs almost double the Arreis.

Here is Ron Paulk now going with CNC top.


4anthony had a thread started a thread about Parf. At the time I didn't pay adequate attention. I'm curious if he got square cuts.


The image of the 3 tops colors are different because one is unwaxed. The following imaging show correct (I think) use of Parf. The Benchdog square is one of the best tools I have. The top with the 'chaotic' pattern is me uber carefully redoing Parf to try determining if I goofed up the process on an already trashed top. A vid showing a feeler gauge indicating .15mm of slop wasn't in the correct format.IMG_0235.jpegIMG_0237.jpeg.IMG_0244.jpeg
IMG_0177.jpeg
 
Wow - that's a lot of holes!

I bought a Parf II system with full intentions of using it for my 4'x8' work table but found a sign shop about 1/2 mile from me that had a large CNC machine and cut the holes at a reasonable cost. I designed a hole layout using a simple 2-d drawing program and they were able to load it into their machine. Since they were machining the holes I was able to have them adjust the hole size to optimize fit with my bench dogs.

For ease of storage I have 3 slabs too. I use Domino tenons for alignment and Domino connectors to hold the slabs as one. For years I had them on two speed horses and TrackTubes. The slabs are attached to the TrackTubes with "stubby" dogs that have bolt heads that can be tightened in the TrackTube top channel. Just this year I splurged and bought a Festool STM 1800 rolling work/cutting table. I love this because I work in my garage and mobility allows me to use my large floor standing tools without the need to take down my big table. I can also roll it outside if needed. I store the slabs on a rack with a cable lift and can setup or breakdown this table in less than 5 minutes.

Good Luck

(I don't understand why you have so many holes so close together. The MFT has 96mm spacing. Depending on the sequence you bored these holes I can see the possibility of getting out of square.)
 
Cost depends on the area. I’m in Colorado Springs, the CNC time is $105.00 per hour, 1 hour minimum, plus material. If you do not have the design in a program we can load, design time is additional. The first top you have done will be the most expensive.

Tom
 
Cost depends on the area. I’m in Colorado Springs, the CNC time is $105.00 per hour, 1 hour minimum, plus material. If you do not have the design in a program we can load, design time is additional. The first top you have done will be the most expensive.

Tom
I'm ok with spending the minimum on one for me. If more are needed I wonder where the best small scale efficiency might be. Each 4'x8' would get about 250 20mm holes 3/4" deep. 5-10-20 sheets at a time? Is that enough volume to get a good price? Or how many sheets at a time for $35-50 each? Just guessing here. You would a router bit right? A guy near me said no use a laser. Thanks
 
Wow - that's a lot of holes!

I bought a Parf II system with full intentions of using it for my 4'x8' work table but found a sign shop about 1/2 mile from me that had a large CNC machine and cut the holes at a reasonable cost. I designed a hole layout using a simple 2-d drawing program and they were able to load it into their machine. Since they were machining the holes I was able to have them adjust the hole size to optimize fit with my bench dogs.

For ease of storage I have 3 slabs too. I use Domino tenons for alignment and Domino connectors to hold the slabs as one. For years I had them on two speed horses and TrackTubes. The slabs are attached to the TrackTubes with "stubby" dogs that have bolt heads that can be tightened in the TrackTube top channel. Just this year I splurged and bought a Festool STM 1800 rolling work/cutting table. I love this because I work in my garage and mobility allows me to use my large floor standing tools without the need to take down my big table. I can also roll it outside if needed. I store the slabs on a rack with a cable lift and can setup or breakdown this table in less than 5 minutes.

Good Luck

(I don't understand why you have so many holes so close together. The MFT has 96mm spacing. Depending on the sequence you bored these holes I can see the possibility of getting out of square.)
By machining does that mean something other than a router bit? Being able to go large and then pack it quickly and hang it is the way. Too many holes on the 3 tops across? You're right, I got carried away. I do have to have some offset holes at 48mm for the guide rail dogs. With more of those there is more flexibility. When I went a more minimal approach I was finding there not enough holes. What's the definition of a reasonable cost?
 
I'm ok with spending the minimum on one for me. If more are needed I wonder where the best small scale efficiency might be. Each 4'x8' would get about 250 20mm holes 3/4" deep. 5-10-20 sheets at a time? Is that enough volume to get a good price? Or how many sheets at a time for $35-50 each? Just guessing here. You would a router bit right? A guy near me said no use a laser. Thanks
A 4x8x3 sheet of MDF is ~$50.00.
Assume a design cost of $100.00, this is a one time cost. Once the design is done it exists forever. Once the design is loaded the estimates how long the job will take.
We know 3 MFT 3 tops can be cut out of a singlet sheet.

105+100+50=255/3=85 per top on the first order
105+50=155/3=51.667 per top on orders of the same design as the first (minimum applies).

Lets look at 2 sheets on a second order assuming 30 minutes per sheet;

105+50=155/6=25.833 per top

The style of MFT 3 top we designed and use.

IMG_1853.jpeg

All of the benches in the shop have a 96mm grid (which at times can be a pain).

IMG_2106.jpeg

A laser to cut through 3/4 material would need to be much more powerful than my 40 watt unit. We machine the holes with a roughing end mill, then a cleaning end mill. The bits are checked for wear, an offset is entered to make up for the tool wear, random holes are checked to be on size. We have not transitioned diamond bits yet.

Tom
 
You could try finding somebody on etsy.

Or contact somebody like ROUTERCAD/BOSS ROUTERS. (They sell CNC routers and software) Ask them if they can recommend somebody local that would be interested in a simple one-off retail job.

When talking to vendors about the job, ask if their machine is big enough to do it all in one set-up. Somebody with a smaller machine might be planning on doing it in two set-ups and shifting the workpiece.
 
I created an MFT grid on my workbench The Hard Way - by plotting the grid with a ruler and pencil and then drilling the holes by hand (with a CXS12). The grid is not perfect. Most are straight, some are a little off.

But I've been wondering lately just how important a perfect grid is and if it is truly necessary?

If I clamp a track hinge to the edge of the bench and put an adjustable angle fence in the dogholes, I'm reasonably sure I can still square the cut by adjusting the fence angle using a square. Whether it's a fence that's adjustable using the Hongdui Hooked On Wood Fence Dogs from Banggood, or the Festool MFT fence with protractor, either of those will line up the fence to square, right?

As I've thought more about it, I feel that this is correct. Thoughts?
 
I created an MFT grid on my workbench The Hard Way - by plotting the grid with a ruler and pencil and then drilling the holes by hand (with a CXS12). The grid is not perfect. Most are straight, some are a little off.

But I've been wondering lately just how important a perfect grid is and if it is truly necessary?

If I clamp a track hinge to the edge of the bench and put an adjustable angle fence in the dogholes, I'm reasonably sure I can still square the cut by adjusting the fence angle using a square. Whether it's a fence that's adjustable using the Hongdui Hooked On Wood Fence Dogs from Banggood, or the Festool MFT fence with protractor, either of those will line up the fence to square, right?

As I've thought more about it, I feel that this is correct. Thoughts?
The accuracy of the grid is only important if you are relying on that accuracy for dogs, rails and making perpendicular or 45 degree cuts. Once you go the Festool or others' route of using the metal profiles instead of the holes, then the holes' accuracy need goes out the window. For instance Festool has never claimed that their hole pattern is accurate. They intended the holes to be for clamping. But the fact that a CNC is pretty accurate lead to the use of the grid for other things.
 
Not intending any criticism but your frustration with the Parf system IS likely down to user error.
My first try with the system delivered a MFT table with 100th of a degree accuracy which surprised the socks off me!

But I totally understand why you want to go the `CNC route and I probably would myself now, too. Why? because it is very easy for human error to slip into the Parf system. I took it very slowly and carefully and was probably more lucky than I deserved with my end result :)

I will need to replace my top next year because - as smorgasbord mentions above, MDF wears out quite quickly. I will probably use the parf system again because I have already bought it but with what I know now and were starting fresh, I would just get one cut by CNC ;)
 
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