Project Failed....how to fix for next time

[Brian247028]

So feeling pretty low right now. In the tool thread I stated I bought a DF700 to build a 4'x8' conference table. That's the only thing that went right.

Needing some feedback from those with more experience than myself so I can learn from this failure.

I only had a table saw so I bought surfaced 3 side hard maple from our local mill. The lumber is kiln dried. I started with 8/4 and had them plane it down to 6/4. In total I bought 7 boards that were roughly 7" wide by 8 ft long.

As it was snowing in the morning I took plastic to wrap them in for the ride home as I know how moisture can cause the wood to warp. The trip home was about 20 minutes and figure 10 minutes on each end to load / unload.

When we went to start ripping them to width I noticed a few of the boards were already bowing length wise. Within the next hour I had 4 boards that also bowed the width so they were no longer flat.

The DF700 worked perfect and I put the domino's every 8". When we had 5 of the boards glued when we stood on end and looked down the length of the board you could see the bow in the wood. It wasn't bad. I have a 6 ft level and I was maybe an 1/8" to 3/16" off.

As we needed 48" wide we had 2 boards left that were badly warped in the width. I'm talking about a 1/2" gap on one side when you held flat on the table.

We ripped the boards down and glued them to get a total table width of 45" however we shouldn't have used the last 2 boards as the  table is out of alignment.

The next problem is when I take my hand and run it over the boards in the width manner I can feel them go up and down so I am no where near flat. When we did the domino we clamped the board tight to the workbench is which is perfectly flat.

Things took a turn for the worse when I went to cut to length and square up the edges using the circular saw. I had a 60th finish blade on and it kept binding and I didn't  get a straight cut. As I only had 2" to spare on overall length this was the next setback. I went and picked up a 24th framing blade and it cut perfect. Problem is my overall length is now 7'9" and not the 8 ft.

To install the C-channel I used a 1/4" sprial upcut bit. Since I don't have a plunge router I drilled a 5/16" hole and my first pass was only a 1/4" deep. The problem though is the router bit kept coming loose and of course went deeper and deeper. I found I could do about 18" passes before I needed to stop, take out the router bit and tighten it back down. Well on my second pass to get the depth to 3/4" she came loose, I didn't catch it and it came through the top of the table.

At this point the project is failed. $600 gone in wood and I spent $2500 between the DF700 and clamps.

I called my brother in law and said I give up and I can't build it which I feel terrible about.

So what did I do wrong?

1) I know they say to let the lumber get used to the room environment a week however it will still twist and warp. So do I buy the lumber, bring it home, then take it back a week later to have them finish to size and then bring back and saw? I don't own a jointer or planer.

2) At 45" wide I'm too wide for any of their sanders or planers to try to get a smooth top. I figured with the DF700 I would have slight sanding where the boards meet and for the most part that was fine it was the other cupping I couldn't control.

3) I have no idea what is up with the router bit. I normally buy Freud bits but my brother in law supplied the bit and it's made by CMT? I guess he got it at Menards. The router is an old craftsman router that is probably 35 years old. It works fine with all my other bits and I was cranking as hard as I could to get it tight. For it to losen up after a small amount I don't get.

I don't know how to proceed. My finances are at the limit spending the money on the DF700 and clamps. To spend another $500 on wood and get the same results I don't see a point.

I guess my brother in law stated he will pick up the table and try wood filler and a belt sander on it to try and get it flat.

Thanks for the help.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I feel for you, I know how soul crushing it is when things go wrong. I recently worked on some hard maple myself funnily enough, and after dressing and squaring it, it all bowed/twisted to a certain degree.

Whenever you pick up timber before machining you really need to let it acclimatise for at least a couple of days ideally for the moisture content to balance out. I did this with my maple, in fact it sat for over a fortnight from memory, but additionally in my case, it seems internal stresses caused it.

I salvaged most of it, bar one piece that's so twisted and bowed it's probably only good for toothpicks.

I don't know if I had left it a lot longer that would have made much difference, as there were clearly internal stress issues that no amount of drying will fix.

So short story is, not only do you need to cater for the stabilisation of the moisture content, but depending on the cut internal stresses can also create major head aches of which you won't be aware how bad until it's been machined. Also, the thinner the stock, the more cup/bow/twist you'll get in some timbers.

 

[ChuckM]

My first take is that you don't quite have all the tools needed to make it a success. For example, a track saw with a guard rail would have prevented the problem created by the circular saw, and a plunge router the blow through. Tackling a large project like yours would go more smoothly if you have had some experience with medium size tables or projects that require the same set of equipment and skills.

Despite what the textbook or some say, I seldom put rough lumber to use until several weeks (to several years) after it's in my shop/house.

 

[usernumber1]

I wouldn't even think to do anything with raw lumber without a moisture meter. There's no way to know what it was when you bought it or after 'acclimating'

Also your wood is not gone. If the conf. table can't be salvaged you can cut it up into some smaller projects. Anything from trim, shelves, picture frames, smaller table tops, legs, etc even accent pieces from scrap

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
I only had a table saw so I bought surfaced 3 side hard maple from our local mill. The lumber is kiln dried. I started with 8/4 and had them plane it down to 6/4. Snip.

Did they plane away the same amount of material from both faces alternately? Troubles ahead if they didn't with that much planing on just one face.

 

[peter halle]

When I read about your upcoming project in your other thread I prayed that I wouldn't see a follow up thread like this.  For what it's worth I will compliment you on your ambition - I wouldn't have tried to tackle that based on what you wrote prior.  Too much risk.

Exactly what went wrong will probably never be pinned down exactly, but as others have already written, moisture imbalances and also stress imbalances if planed only on one side could definitely be factors.

In the future, allow more time for acclimation, make sure that you have cleaned the inside of your router collet.  Based on it age who knows how much junk is in there.  Also make sure that all new bits are cleaned of any protective coatings including possibly wax or grease - including the shank.  If you don't have the tools to flatten, create subassemblies that can be taken back for sanding or planing.  Find out the max size that they can handle.  Then put those sub assemblies together and deal with any differences in final height with what you have.

Most importantly, it sucks and the wood gods were not good to you this time.  It does happen to all of us to some degree in our evolution and hopefully we learn from the experience. All we can really do when working with wood is try to reduce the possibility that it will move on us in an unpredictable way.

Hang in there.  You are not alone.  We've all been there.

Peter

 

[rmhinden]

Sorry to hear, that is a bummer.  Building a 4' x 8' x 1.5" maple table top a big project.  Simple in theory, but hard in execution.  I suspect the wood wasn't that dry, and the car ride in the cold, then into your shop didn't help

As [member=68525]usernumber1[/member] said, the wood is still useable.  If you can live with it being a little thinner, your could rip it into half longwise, bring the two pieces to a mill with a 24" joiner/plainer and have them flatten it, and then use your DF700 to put it back together.  I would give it some more time to acclimatize first to see when it stops moving.

Good luck.

Bob

 

[Michael Kellough]

Snip.
I only had a table saw so I bought surfaced 3 side hard maple from our local mill. The lumber is kiln dried. I started with 8/4 and had them plane it down to 6/4. Snip.

Did they plane away the same amount of material from both faces alternately? Troubles ahead if they didn't with that much planing on just one face.

I'm with Chuck and Peter, if 1/2" was taken off just one side of the stock then that act alone sealed your fate. Even if everything else went right.  [sad]

 

[luvmytoolz]

Is hard maple a bit prone to more internal stresses than most other timbers? Mine was already dry and in a mates garage for months before I got it, and I let it sit for weeks in my shed before i touched it. The moisture meter I have is a cheapo, but I've been using it for ages on many other timbers without any of the severe twisting/bowing issues I had with the Maple.

 

[Brian247028]

Thank you everyone for your feedback and help. To answer a few of the questions.

1) The mill is a reputable mill and all their wood is kiln dried. I've been going to them for years and never had an issue. When I get surfaced 3 sides they get one edge to a flat edge so I can then put it on my table saw and they plane the two sides. Since we had to remove a 1/2" I don't know if they took a 1/4" off each side but I will say on two boards they had me pick out new boards as they warped will milling them.

2) I will probably never own a planer and jointer so how do I acclimate wood to my basement if I need to transport it to get other work done? That goes back to my question on do I buy just the wood bring it home for a few weeks then take it back to get the surface prepped and then bring it back home to start finish size and glue up?

I've done plenty of wood working but most has been red oak, walnut and alder. The projects have been simple to medium in complexity. Like mentioned above this sounded so easy in theory but I failed in execution.

I will check the router collet to see if there is any debris in there.

If I remake it the one thing I would do different is have them finished to maximum thickness and build two 24" panels so I can take them back and get them planned to the finish thickness and then join the two pieces together .

Above it was stated this table can be salvaged. I don't believe so. I am already not meeting their requirements. They want 48" width and I'm at 45". They want 8ft length and I'm at 7' 9".  I'm not sure they are willing to go down to 1.25" thickness nor am I sure I can get it ripped straight that would allow a clean glue up when I put it back together.

 

[luvmytoolz]

The timbers probably not salvageable for this project, but that's not to say it won't be useful for another, that may be the best you can do for now with it.

With the router, it's strange the cutter worked it's way out so much. Were you really hogging it, pushing it to remove too much in one go, or are you using one of those reducing sleeves with the cutter?

Other than the collet being damaged/dirty/out of round, or just not tightened enough, a cutter being pushed too hard, or being blunt are really the only reasons I've ever known to cause the cutter to dislodge.

Your comment about the mill replacing 2 boards that warped immediately upon machining sort of confirms my suspicion the hard maple suffers from strong internal stresses causing warping more than moisture levels.

 

[Brian247028]

The timbers probably not salvageable for this project, but that's not to say it won't be useful for another, that may be the best you can do for now with it.

With the router, it's strange the cutter worked it's way out so much. Were you really hogging it, pushing it to remove too much in one go, or are you using one of those reducing sleeves with the cutter?

Other than the collet being damaged/dirty/out of round, or just not tightened enough, a cutter being pushed too hard, or being blunt are really the only reasons I've ever known to cause the cutter to dislodge.

Your comment about the mill replacing 2 boards that warped immediately upon machining sort of confirms my suspicion the hard maple suffers from strong internal stresses causing warping more than moisture levels.

It's a new bit so it shouldn't be dull. You may have a point on I was going too fast with it as I was doing a normal speed like you typically do on a round over bit etc. That being said it's not like I was bogging down the motor but I will keep in mind to go slower.

 

[Brian247028]

When I read about your upcoming project in your other thread I prayed that I wouldn't see a follow up thread like this.  For what it's worth I will compliment you on your ambition - I wouldn't have tried to tackle that based on what you wrote prior.  Too much risk.

Exactly what went wrong will probably never be pinned down exactly, but as others have already written, moisture imbalances and also stress imbalances if planed only on one side could definitely be factors.

In the future, allow more time for acclimation, make sure that you have cleaned the inside of your router collet.  Based on it age who knows how much junk is in there.  Also make sure that all new bits are cleaned of any protective coatings including possibly wax or grease - including the shank.  If you don't have the tools to flatten, create subassemblies that can be taken back for sanding or planing.  Find out the max size that they can handle.  Then put those sub assemblies together and deal with any differences in final height with what you have.

Most importantly, it sucks and the wood gods were not good to you this time.  It does happen to all of us to some degree in our evolution and hopefully we learn from the experience. All we can really do when working with wood is try to reduce the possibility that it will move on us in an unpredictable way.

Hang in there.  You are not alone.  We've all been there.

Peter

Hi Peter - The good news is the domino tool worked flawlessly. We did the first hole in the tight setting on each board and then the rest we did loose. I'm glad we did it that way since each board had 13 dominos and trying to get them all aligned and clamped before the glue set was a challenge. We also glued one board at a time as I felt even trying to glue two boards at a time would have been too much.

This has been a kick to the stomach but that's why I'm asking from those with more experience what I should have done differently.

I'm not sure how we are proceeding with this table. Last I heard my brother-in-law was going to come and pick it up and see if he can salvage it.

 

[jeffinsgf]

Here's my take...for what it's worth.

That is a massive glue-up. Problematic no matter how you approach it.

Unless it was from an exceptionally large tree, I think your 7" wide sections were too wide. Look at the end grain. If you see any growth rings that complete a semi-circle, that section has a high probability of cupping no matter how carefully dried or milled. In my experience, that probability is a bit higher in hard maple. Approximately 90 degrees is ideal...but you can usually get by with 130ish, but a full 180 is asking for trouble. Rip each section narrower and your glue-up has a much better chance.

1" of total kerf allowance was inadequate. If I wanted a 48" finished width, I would want about 50 inches total after all the sections were finish milled and ready for glue, which means I would probably buy 55" to 60" of straight-line ripped material. It's the same with length. 8' material can't make an 8' table.

13 Dominos seems excessive. These are not adding strength, they're just aligning your top surface. 7 would have put them every 16 inches...some may think that's not enough, but thinking that you're going to deflect 1-1/2" of hard maple in 8 inches is ambitious.

I would have suggested you buy the DF-500 instead of the 700 and spend the savings on a Rotex. While flat is important, smooth is more important. Finding someplace with a 48" wide belt sander that will run one piece of material for you would be challenging. I would get the panel glued up to the best of my ability and then tackle it with a hand-held abrasive tool. In years past that would have meant a belt sander, but a Rotex maintains flatness better than a belt sander and is just as fast.

Tough lesson, but you're a better woodworker now than you were before.

 

[peter halle]

As a follow up, you wrote that they had you choose 2 other boards because 2 warped while planing.  That indicates directly that there were stresses relieved when they planed and that there was a likelihood of further complications for you.  Just because this happened is not a slight against the supplier.  Kiln drying wood can set up stresses that will never be known until the wood is worked again.  Heck, read enough threads here and you will read complaints about plywood and other panel products reacting to being cut, and as a norm those products are usually more stable than lumber.

Peter

 

[dashboardpws]

Another thing to consider is that many lumber suppliers are also milling operations. At Austin Hardwoods in Denver I can buy all sorts of wood but they'll also do glueups and surfacing in whatever size is needed. If I were back in the furniture game I would definitely have a place like that make the panels and focus my work on details and legs. Huge "timesaver" (pun intended). Just something to think about.

 

[derekcohen]

So feeling pretty low right now. In the tool thread I stated I bought a DF700 to build a 4'x8' conference table. That's the only thing that went right.

Needing some feedback from those with more experience than myself so I can learn from this failure.

I only had a table saw so I bought surfaced 3 side hard maple from our local mill. The lumber is kiln dried. I started with 8/4 and had them plane it down to 6/4. In total I bought 7 boards that were roughly 7" wide by 8 ft long.

As it was snowing in the morning I took plastic to wrap them in for the ride home as I know how moisture can cause the wood to warp. The trip home was about 20 minutes and figure 10 minutes on each end to load / unload.

When we went to start ripping them to width I noticed a few of the boards were already bowing length wise. Within the next hour I had 4 boards that also bowed the width so they were no longer flat.

The DF700 worked perfect and I put the domino's every 8". When we had 5 of the boards glued when we stood on end and looked down the length of the board you could see the bow in the wood. It wasn't bad. I have a 6 ft level and I was maybe an 1/8" to 3/16" off.

As we needed 48" wide we had 2 boards left that were badly warped in the width. I'm talking about a 1/2" gap on one side when you held flat on the table.

We ripped the boards down and glued them to get a total table width of 45" however we shouldn't have used the last 2 boards as the  table is out of alignment.

The next problem is when I take my hand and run it over the boards in the width manner I can feel them go up and down so I am no where near flat. When we did the domino we clamped the board tight to the workbench is which is perfectly flat.

Things took a turn for the worse when I went to cut to length and square up the edges using the circular saw. I had a 60th finish blade on and it kept binding and I didn't  get a straight cut. As I only had 2" to spare on overall length this was the next setback. I went and picked up a 24th framing blade and it cut perfect. Problem is my overall length is now 7'9" and not the 8 ft.

To install the C-channel I used a 1/4" sprial upcut bit. Since I don't have a plunge router I drilled a 5/16" hole and my first pass was only a 1/4" deep. The problem though is the router bit kept coming loose and of course went deeper and deeper. I found I could do about 18" passes before I needed to stop, take out the router bit and tighten it back down. Well on my second pass to get the depth to 3/4" she came loose, I didn't catch it and it came through the top of the table.

At this point the project is failed. $600 gone in wood and I spent $2500 between the DF700 and clamps.

I called my brother in law and said I give up and I can't build it which I feel terrible about.

So what did I do wrong?

1) I know they say to let the lumber get used to the room environment a week however it will still twist and warp. So do I buy the lumber, bring it home, then take it back a week later to have them finish to size and then bring back and saw? I don't own a jointer or planer.

2) At 45" wide I'm too wide for any of their sanders or planers to try to get a smooth top. I figured with the DF700 I would have slight sanding where the boards meet and for the most part that was fine it was the other cupping I couldn't control.

3) I have no idea what is up with the router bit. I normally buy Freud bits but my brother in law supplied the bit and it's made by CMT? I guess he got it at Menards. The router is an old craftsman router that is probably 35 years old. It works fine with all my other bits and I was cranking as hard as I could to get it tight. For it to losen up after a small amount I don't get.

I don't know how to proceed. My finances are at the limit spending the money on the DF700 and clamps. To spend another $500 on wood and get the same results I don't see a point.

I guess my brother in law stated he will pick up the table and try wood filler and a belt sander on it to try and get it flat.

Thanks for the help.

Brian, let's try and salvage what you have.

1. Do not do any more work on this table. Put it all aside for a couple of weeks. What you want to do is allow the tensions to release and the boards to settle back to flat.

If this does not work, then you can try a little moisture and a heater.

2. Do not be concerned about the length being shorter than you want. The table can be lengthened by adding breadboard ends. That would do double duty in keeping boards flat.

3. Get a couple of extra boards - even one might do. You can add an apron around the circumference of the table top, and this will give it the appearance of a thicker top. Even so, 1 1/4" may be thick enough, depending on the design. Can you show us the design?

4. The reason your router bit loosened is that the collet may need cleaning. Use a little sandpaper on the inside. Just make sure that the bit is 1/2" and not 12mm.

5. I don't like sanders for flattening tops. I use a hand plane. Do you know how to use one? Otherwise you can flatten the top with a router sled. Do you know how?

6. Lastly, a stiff whiskey may be good medicine right now. That and leave the wood alone for a few weeks!

Remember, experts make mistakes, but what makes them expert is knowing how to correct the mistakes!

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Michael Kellough]

[thumbs up]Derek!

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Don’t take it to heart and beat yourself up, Brian. There isn’t a single member of this forum who hasn’t had a disaster at some point along the way.

Just console yourself with the fact that I’ve just spent six weeks building and installing the most beautiful kitchen I think I’ve ever done. It cost the client £12k just for the granite countertops alone. It was 6pm on the last day, and I was just clearing my tools away. Suddenly - there was an anguished howl from upstairs. A plumber was moving some radiators in the room directly above the new kitchen, and was in the process of lifting floorboards so he could run his new pipework. He’d set his cutting depth too low and he’d cut through a mains-pressure water pipe running under the floorboards. Within seconds, water was pouring through the ceiling. He came rushing downstairs to find the shutoff valve - and it was seized solid. It only took the ceiling 5 minutes to come crashing down. The mess and damage was beyond belief. The water company’s emergency team thankfully arrived within 30 minutes to shut off the water in the street.

I know you’ll be hurting and frustrated right now - but there’s always someone out there having a worse day than you. I wish you every success with your next project. And there will be a next one.

Kevin

 

[Brian247028]

So feeling pretty low right now. In the tool thread I stated I bought a DF700 to build a 4'x8' conference table. That's the only thing that went right.

Needing some feedback from those with more experience than myself so I can learn from this failure.

I only had a table saw so I bought surfaced 3 side hard maple from our local mill. The lumber is kiln dried. I started with 8/4 and had them plane it down to 6/4. In total I bought 7 boards that were roughly 7" wide by 8 ft long.

As it was snowing in the morning I took plastic to wrap them in for the ride home as I know how moisture can cause the wood to warp. The trip home was about 20 minutes and figure 10 minutes on each end to load / unload.

When we went to start ripping them to width I noticed a few of the boards were already bowing length wise. Within the next hour I had 4 boards that also bowed the width so they were no longer flat.

The DF700 worked perfect and I put the domino's every 8". When we had 5 of the boards glued when we stood on end and looked down the length of the board you could see the bow in the wood. It wasn't bad. I have a 6 ft level and I was maybe an 1/8" to 3/16" off.

As we needed 48" wide we had 2 boards left that were badly warped in the width. I'm talking about a 1/2" gap on one side when you held flat on the table.

We ripped the boards down and glued them to get a total table width of 45" however we shouldn't have used the last 2 boards as the  table is out of alignment.

The next problem is when I take my hand and run it over the boards in the width manner I can feel them go up and down so I am no where near flat. When we did the domino we clamped the board tight to the workbench is which is perfectly flat.

Things took a turn for the worse when I went to cut to length and square up the edges using the circular saw. I had a 60th finish blade on and it kept binding and I didn't  get a straight cut. As I only had 2" to spare on overall length this was the next setback. I went and picked up a 24th framing blade and it cut perfect. Problem is my overall length is now 7'9" and not the 8 ft.

To install the C-channel I used a 1/4" sprial upcut bit. Since I don't have a plunge router I drilled a 5/16" hole and my first pass was only a 1/4" deep. The problem though is the router bit kept coming loose and of course went deeper and deeper. I found I could do about 18" passes before I needed to stop, take out the router bit and tighten it back down. Well on my second pass to get the depth to 3/4" she came loose, I didn't catch it and it came through the top of the table.

At this point the project is failed. $600 gone in wood and I spent $2500 between the DF700 and clamps.

I called my brother in law and said I give up and I can't build it which I feel terrible about.

So what did I do wrong?

1) I know they say to let the lumber get used to the room environment a week however it will still twist and warp. So do I buy the lumber, bring it home, then take it back a week later to have them finish to size and then bring back and saw? I don't own a jointer or planer.

2) At 45" wide I'm too wide for any of their sanders or planers to try to get a smooth top. I figured with the DF700 I would have slight sanding where the boards meet and for the most part that was fine it was the other cupping I couldn't control.

3) I have no idea what is up with the router bit. I normally buy Freud bits but my brother in law supplied the bit and it's made by CMT? I guess he got it at Menards. The router is an old craftsman router that is probably 35 years old. It works fine with all my other bits and I was cranking as hard as I could to get it tight. For it to losen up after a small amount I don't get.

I don't know how to proceed. My finances are at the limit spending the money on the DF700 and clamps. To spend another $500 on wood and get the same results I don't see a point.

I guess my brother in law stated he will pick up the table and try wood filler and a belt sander on it to try and get it flat.

Thanks for the help.

Brian, let's try and salvage what you have.

1. Do not do any more work on this table. Put it all aside for a couple of weeks. What you want to do is allow the tensions to release and the boards to settle back to flat.

If this does not work, then you can try a little moisture and a heater.

2. Do not be concerned about the length being shorter than you want. The table can be lengthened by adding breadboard ends. That would do double duty in keeping boards flat.

3. Get a couple of extra boards - even one might do. You can add an apron around the circumference of the table top, and this will give it the appearance of a thicker top. Even so, 1 1/4" may be thick enough, depending on the design. Can you show us the design?

4. The reason your router bit loosened is that the collet may need cleaning. Use a little sandpaper on the inside. Just make sure that the bit is 1/2" and not 12mm.

5. I don't like sanders for flattening tops. I use a hand plane. Do you know how to use one? Otherwise you can flatten the top with a router sled. Do you know how?

6. Lastly, a stiff whiskey may be good medicine right now. That and leave the wood alone for a few weeks!

Remember, experts make mistakes, but what makes them expert is knowing how to correct the mistakes!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Can I start with # 6 first? ha ha

To answer your questions.
1. Will do.

2. They don't like the breadboard look

3. I like this idea.

4. Will be looking at it tomorrow night.

5. I do not have a hand plane. I don't have a router sled nor do I have the table room for one. My assembly table is 48" wide and the table is 45" so I have 1.5" of space on each side. I don't believe that's enough room.

6. I like it...repeat...