Repeated Rip Cuts with TS55 + MFT + Guide

Dan Clark

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Jul 30, 2009
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540
Hi.  In another forum, a fellow is trying to decide among several tool alternatives (including Festool) to build a fence.  I'm not sure why, but he wants to rip a large number of fence boards. 

A Festool accessory competitor has long stated that his solution is superior to Festool's guides to solve this problem.  Frankly, I think that's just more marketing hype, but I've never had to do repeated rip cuts. Also, table saw aficionados insist that the table saw is much better than a TS55 + MFT + Guide. 

I'm not arguing that there might be better solutions.  However... What is the best of way to repeatedly rip a large number of boards IF you used only Festool products and maybe handmade jigs?  How would you do that? 

Thanks,

Dan.

p.s., this fellow has several other needs and a big thing is safety.  So he's sold on Festool's safety features including dust collection.  That said, his fence is a BIG short term need.
 
I always try to use the right tool to the job.  I think the TS is superior in that situation. 
I have the TS55 and MFT and guide but for some jobs my TS makes more sense.
 
Yes, I understand that (and stated that up front).  But that assumes that you have a table saw.  Not a valid assumption. 

In this case, the other poster and I agree that the only table saw we would buy would be a SawStop.  And given cost and space concerns, that would have to be the SawStop contractor saw which won't be out until sometime late in 2007 (at $1,200).  Assuming that space is not a issue, then a SawStop cabinet saw would work, but that's something like $3,000+.    It's absurd to spend $3,000 to build a fence or rip a few boards.

The question is quite limited - how would you do it with Festool products?  That's the challenge; sidestepping the question isn't allowed.  Table saws and Festool competitor's products are completely outside the scope of this discussion.

Regards,

Dan.
 
Without a doubt, the TS is the best tool to use for something like this. However, using just the TS55 and a guide rail, you can come fairly close to the speed a TS will provide. If all the pieces are the same size, then you simply clamp a board to the underside of the rail. You clamp it so that when you slide the piece to be cut under the rail, the clamped board acts as a stop, or in this case a fence. No measuring needed other than getting the clamped board in place. This is where saw horses and 2x4s work better as a cutting platform. You lay the clamped board and rail on top of the 2x4s so that the clamp handles are hanging down between two 2x4s. I do this all the time on jobsites and it works extremely well. For narrow rips on the MFT, I do the same thing only I clamp the board to the table. The MFT is a better setup, but you're limited in length.

I won't comment on the other tool being discussed over there, but without reading the thread, I bet I know who is doing the arguing for it.  ::)
 
Lou,

Many thanks!  This is what I was looking for.  It sounds like a quick, simple, very usable solution for those of us who aren't doing production work and/or don't have a tablesaw.

If using a standard MFT1080, that means you could rip something like 28" with the guide rail in the standard position and 42" if using a 55" guide in the length-ways position. 

For grins, I think I'll try that on my MFT and on sawhorses, take some pics, and then place the pics in my FOG gallery.  I'll respond here with the pics when I'm done.

Thanks again and regards,

Dan.
 
Lou is right on the mark,IMO, but I believe the long side of an MFT would be adequate in this case unless the picket fence is taller than usual. I would have posted this approach but I have resolved to stay out of the potential flaming venues over there.
 
I don't have a Festool nor the other but I would think you could clamp a stop on the MFT slide the guide back away from the stop the width of the desired board plus blade thickness and cut. Remove that board and slide the stock over to the stop and cut again.
If the guide never moved the boards should all be the same size.

I do have a concern ripping the wood this way I seems with the wood pressed against the stop and blade it could cause a bind.

Before I say what I going to say next please understand I didn't say that to start a p-ssing contest between Festool and the other it just seems to me that they both are approaching the problem from the same perspective.

If you go to the other system's site you will see they have what they call a bridge. To me it looks similar to how the guide is affixed to the MFT.

If I'm not too far wrong, what they do/demo using the bridge should be able to be done on MFT and guide. Or am I missing something?

 
Ed,

No, you're not missing anything. The bridge is just a variation on a theme. It might 'self adjust' to the workpiece thickness, but then, it doesn't swing out of the way in an instant either. The bridge is probably not so bad for a dedicated cutting table but it would make less sense on an MFT since the table can be used for so much more.

Added: What you suggested will work but Lou's approach eliminates the possibility of the pinching of the work you were concerned with.
 
Dan,

John Lucas' last posting explored use of a digital fence (like a planer height gauge) installed on an MFT to make repetitive narrow rip cuts.  Of course, if you can just use a one size fence like Lou discusses, you dont need the adjustability of a digital gauge.  However, it's worth taking a look at John's setup.

Dave
 
On the old Yahoo forum a member hinged two guide rails together and then clamped one of the rails to a piece of material the same height as the material he was ripping and also used that as a stop for the rip. Sorry no picture and can't find them on the old Yahoo forum. All he had to do was lift the loose guide rail, slip the board underneath and butt it against the other board used as a stop, lower the rail, rip the piece to width, repeat for as many times as you need. If the original poster is reading this it might be worth reposting or transferring the images as I thought it was a very useful jig. Also check out www.woodshopdemos where John just uses a stair gauge stop (?) on a piece of lumber as a story stick. Slower but results are repeatable with all the goodness of Festool dust extraction and cut finish.
 
Hey guys.

I am "that" guy from the other forum with the question about repetative rips for fence pickets. 

I have a small shop and am in the process of accumulating tools.  I have been going back and forth about the purchase of a TS (In fact, I am probably going up to Syracuse tomorrow to take a look at a General Contractor TS).

That being said, I am still interested if the Festool system has a way (albeit, it might not be easier) to do the repeated cuts for pickets that I can understand as simple is good for me (being pretty green at WW).

I don't care what tools that I buy but want to make good choices in buying them.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have several tools that do the same thing.  Rather, I am looking at one tool that can do several things.

Aside of the fence, other projects I am interested in are shop cabinets/shelving, sandbox for the kids, router table, and reproduction wooden storms for our house (good excuse for the Domino), and refinishing a staircase (good use for the Rotex and CT22).

So, what do you think?

Thanks,
Chuck
 
Chuck,

Hi.  I tested this evening and took some pics.  I'll post the pics in the morning. 
Regards, 

Dan.
 
Charles Wilson said:
I am "that" guy from the other forum with the question about repetative rips for fence pickets. 

Rather, I am looking at one tool that can do several things.

I routinely cut 2" rails and stiles for my cabinets with my ATf 65 and guide rail - to a very high degee of accuracy and repeatability.  I also break down sheet goods with the same saw and guide rail.  While I make no claim to do it faster than John Lucas, who is really fast at it, I get the job done efficiently.

I have a very simple jig for cutting rails and stiles - or any other width that I need.  I have shown pix before on this list, am not sure where they got to now.  My jig is really simple, fast to set up, and quite inexpensive.  It consists of an 8' long X approximately 14" wide piece of MDF.  I have guide rail supports along one side and a rail 3/4" high running most of the length of the MDF.  I have various width pieces that I cut often [1 1/2". 2" and 3"], clamp the rail using them to determine the width of cut.  I then slide the work piece under the rail, butting it against the wooden rail, support off-cut side as necessary and rip away.  I usually use the ripping blade and get good results with it.  There should be pix around, I'll see if I can find them tomorrow - the jig is definitely a low tech piece - and it works.
 
clintholeman said:
I then slide the work piece under the rail, butting it against the wooden rail, support off-cut side as necessary and rip away.

I like these techniques using stops under the rails, and will give them a try, but I'm wondering about the part where you say "support the off-cut side as necessary..."  For the typical MFT setup (granted, this can be changed) there isn't much room to the off-cut side of the rail so if you're cutting strips off a wide piece you would need that support.  I actually do it a bit differently in that I use the off-cut piece as my 'keeper.'  It's probably not as fast as Lou's or Clint's method, but it allows one to use the MFT to support the piece from which you're cutting the stips.  To speed things up I use my comination square.  I set it to 3/32" plus the width of the piece I need (I've found that 3/32" is a good approx to the kerf width and it's easy to add that amount), slide the piece under the rail a bit beyond the necessary width while pushing against the fence, butt the combo square against the edge of the piece and then slide it back until the ruler part of the combo square hits the rubber strip on the rail.  I then check the distance further down the piece, away from the fence, to ensure that the width will be uniform.  After cutting the stip of wood and removing the off-cut, I lift the rail, slide the piece over again, butt the combo square, etc and recut.  A few pics would explain this in a jiffy--maybe I"ll try to do that later.
--Rob
 
Dan Clark said:
What is the best of way to repeatedly rip a large number of boards IF you used only Festool products and maybe handmade jigs?

Dan, so far no one has asked you to clarify your question--repeat rip cuts where the finished piece is wider than the guide rail, or repeated rip cuts where the resulting piece is narrower?  It makes a big difference, but for both situations, this question has come up repeatedly on the old forum, and it's impressive the way that the wheel keeps being reinvented--lots of bright, innovative people come up with very similar solutions.

This thread has focused exclusively on the latter situation (everyone is assuming that the fence boards will be narrower than the guide rail), so I'll disregard the solutions for the former.  (Jay St. Peter's impressive rip gauges would fit this category, as would Jerry Work's innovative use of the MFS rails for this purpose in his MFS manual)

Ed in Tampa came up with an idea that's very similar to one that our moderator, Matthew Schenker, posted on the old forum.  I think he called it his "right register jig" or something similar to that.

Lou Miller suggests that one can "simply clamp a board to the underside of the rail."  If you try to do this, you'll find that it's not always so simple to do, depending on the length of the board and how you intend to support the guide rail, saw and work piece.  This is where the EZ rails and clamps really seem to have an advantage, because the clamps on the underside of the rail will sit flat on any flat surface.  However, since we're not allowed to suggest solutions other than Festool (and since we seem run the risk of being falsely accused of "gorilla [sic] marketing" for simply mentioning the EZ system) I'll continue to talk about some more workable variations on Lou Miller's idea.

Mark Enomoto mentioned an idea that was posted on the old forum by Steve Dunkerly in messages # 3005 and # 4516.  Steve fastened two guide rails side-by-side using ordinary Stanley hinges from a hardware store.  The hinges are mounted in the top "T" track of the guide rails with 5/16" bolts and wing nuts.  This method relies on having sufficient stock available to support both rails side-by-side.  The scrap is positioned the same way as Lou Miller suggests.  The advantage of this system is that the guide rail that is being sawed upon can be tilted up at the end of the cut, allowing the finished piece to be quickly removed, and the new stock quickly inserted.  Another advantage is that, because you use same-sized stock to support the rails, you can use this with stock of any thickness.  But this is a double-edged sword, because it's possible that you may not have enough stock to support both guide rails.

I liked Steve's idea, but I liked the idea of using dedicated stock and a single guide rail.  The advantages are that you only need a single guide rail, and you will never have a situation in which you don't have enough stock of equal thickness to support the rail.  The disadvantage is that my type of jig may only be used with stock of the same thickness, unless you shim the stock or the jig to make the height of one equal to the other.  Alternatively, you could make one for each thickness you work with frequently, e.g., 18mm for carcase stock, 12mm for drawer sides, and 5mm for drawer bottoms.

The jig consists of a piece of "fence" stock and hinged pieces that connect the fence to the guide rail in a manner similar to Steve Dunkerly's method.  At each end of the stock there's a slot that runs across the width of the stock.  Pics of my jig are posted below.  The first one shows the rail from above.  The second shows the rail tilted up, as if to remove the cut piece and replace it with a new piece to cut.  The third shows the underside of the jig, with the t-bolt that holds the hinged piece to the fence.  The underside of the slot is cut slightly wider so the head of the t-bolt can't rotate.

A disadvantage of Steve Dunkerly's method and mine is that the piece being cut can move under the guide rail.  I know, it sounds like heresy, but I've had it happen while cutting pieces that were so narrow that they were only in contact with the rubber "anti chip" strip under the guide rail.

EDIT:  I forgot to mention a similar idea posted on the old forum by "Markeno."  Using two of the pivoting assemblies that attach the guide rail to the MFT (part group #50) , use t-track or something similar (Incra dual t-track, perhaps) to attach the MFT lengthwise to the two assemblies on the MFT.  The t-track would allow the guide rail to be set at various distances from the pivoting assemblies.  A fence could be set up anywhere on the MFT to enable the guide rails to be positioned relative to the fence for cuts that were narrower or wider than the rail.  And because the pivoting assemblies are height-adjustable, the amount of support stock needed under the rail is minimized, or made completely unnecessary in some cases.  Markeno posted a CAD drawing of this proposed setup on the old forum.  For what it's worth, I'll type in the old URL, although it seems not to work--
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/FestoolOwnersGroup/photos/view/cf16?b=68&m=f&o=0

Regards,

John
 
Here's another jig that I use for repeat narrow cuts on the MFT.  The jig is used in pairs--each jig has a metal rod that fits under the MFT, and because two points define a line, the tips of the two rods serve as a fence.  The jigs slide onto the guide rail and are fastened to the t-track with a t-bolt and nut.

The first pic shows one of the jigs from the side, mounted on the guide rail.  The second pic shows the jig from the top--one bolt fastens the jig to the guide rail, and the other holds the rod in place.  The third pic shows the jig from underneath the guide rail.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John
 
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