Scraping Blade - LS130 or Vecturo?

[mike_aa]

Has anyone compared the scraping blade on the LS130 versus the one for the Vecturo?  I'm anticipating scraping black bathroom tile adhesive from a plaster wall.  I read a previous post by [member=44099]Cheese[/member] that spoke to the use of the LS130, but I haven't seen anything after the Vecturo was introduced.  I know there are two different motions to the tools.  Is one better/faster than the other for this application?

Thanks, Mike A.

 

[Cheese]

[member=30413]mike_aa[/member]
Mike, I used both the LS 130 and a Fein and thought the LS 130 worked a lot better. The blade on the Fein had a tendency to dig into the plaster sometimes while the 130 blade skated on top. You also have to be careful with the Fein because the blade can heat up and soften the mastic and that's a mess.

Having said that, there were times when I needed to use the Fein. My suggestion is to put a scraper blade on both tools and keep them both at the ready.

I also found a Sandvik or Bahco hand scraper with the interchangeable carbide insert to be of significant help. Good luck...I'm glad I'm through with that task.

 

[bobfog]

Have you considered a scraping blade on a SDS with chisel fucntion, or one for a reciprocating saw? like these:

 

[rst]

I use my Fein Supercut on low speed for this and for removing putty and caulk.  I also keep a spray bottle of citrus cleaner on hand and spray the blade occasionally to keep the goo from sticking.  The other thing to keep in mind, although I'm not sure how much difference it makes is that one is side to side reciprocation and the other forward and back.  I really have not tried my LS 130 for this purpose.

 

[greg mann]

I have used the LS130 for this task and it works pretty well.

 

[mike_aa]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member]  Thanks for getting back to me.  Sounds like good advice to have both on hand when I do this.  I have both tools.  Just need the scraper blade for the LS.

[member=60286]bobfog[/member]  I forgot that blade was available for the Sawzall.  I should have mentioned in my original post that this is for the black mastic glue they used for 1950's ceramic wall tile so I likely don't need something that heavy duty.  However, I might pick up the blade and give it a try just to see how it will work.  Now, when I decide to remove the floor tile, that will be the way to go!  Thanks for pointing it out.

[member=25351]rst[/member]  [member=22]greg mann[/member]  Thanks for your comments and the idea about the cleaner.

Mike A.

 

[Cheese]

[member=30413]mike_aa[/member]
I did a bathroom in our house that was built in 1952. The mastic was very brittle and had turned a very dark brown. Sometimes the mastic came off of the tiles [mad], at other times it came off of the wall [big grin].

The part that made the big difference is if you can place the edge of the tool at exactly the interface between the mastic and the plaster and at about a 30-45 degree angle to the wall. That way the 130 will shear the interface and it comes off nice. Unfortunately if the tool is just a little above the wall surface, the bond between the tile and mastic is broken and now you still have to remove the mastic. 

However, that's when I used the Sandvik hand scraper with the carbide insert.
Place the scraper's carbide blade flat against the plaster wall and pull down quickly and forcefully, maintaining a lot of force on the head of the scraper so that it rides only on the plaster and doesn't start to ride up on the mastic.
Because much of the mastic is brittle (but not necessarily all) the scraper will break the interface of the mastic and plaster although at this point you're now only working a 2" wide area.

 

[mkasdin]

Not sure if a small grinder with the right (dewalt) wheel would do the trick? Like cheese said try the hand scraper, sometimes spraying water or a solvent (denatured alcohol) might loosen up the adhesive and allow the scraper to easily remove the mastic. I like the 3 1/2" floor scrapers in general, I don't own the sandvik scraper?

I have a variable speed Bosch grinder with a shroud for dust extraction it works well without spinning at 10k rpm and is fairly safe even in a vertical position. The non variable speed grinders typically dig in and makes a mess of things. On something like that I might feather the on/off switch to carefully remove the mastic by just notching the grinder on and off?

I also have a cheap Red multi-tool. Bosch has a bunch of decent carbide blades for the tool and I use a 90 cent adapter, I've had good luck with the multi tool but it's slow going and the blades wear out quicker than I wish. That's why my Dremel never gets used, the consumables are rediculous.

 

[greg mann]

If the OP needs to resort to a grinder type tool the RAS115 is a good option. The speed can be dialed down to mitigate, but not eliminate, the abrasive loading up and you get pretty good dust collection. These jobs usually wind up requiring several approaches to complete. I was faced with removing asphalt tiles from a hardwood floor where most of the mastic stayed on the floor instead of the tile, not surprisingly. The LS130 popped the tile off easily and the real work started after that. The RAS did the job but it also was necessary to remove enough of the wood surface where the mastic had bled into the grain. It was a bit of a slog as the mastic was tenacious and had been applied thicker than it should have been.

 

[waho6o9]

Good to know I can turn my LS130 into a scraper, thanks Foggers!

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[idratherplaytennis]

Out of curiosity... is there a reason for a desire to save the plaster? Just wondered since it sounds like... if something else is going up in its stead... the time spent using a sawzall or jab saw to cut out the plaster, screw some new drywall in with shims and drywall compound (if needed) might be just as fast or faster depending on the job. If it's to save money because the tools are on hand and not the drywall, I humbly apologize as I understand needing to save money.

Having just finished a job where I had to use a diamond cup grinder to literally grind away the [mastic/glue/whatever-they-used for linoleum] from concrete in a kitchen we remodeled so that the thinset would adhere, I'm a bit jaded towards all sorts of scrapings for our not-so-well-plastered walls in this old apartment building. That said, I'm all for learning new ways to remove that garbage because it's definitely not a fun job

 

[Cheese]

Out of curiosity... is there a reason for a desire to save the plaster?

Well if it's in good shape, it's a bonus round because it is a sound deadener and it's tough to damage. This is just a guess, however it can be 4-5 times more difficult to damage than drywall.
Houses in the US that were built in the early 50's usually used 3/8" plaster board (a variation of drywall) along with a coat of 3/8" plaster. However because the final coat of plaster was not always exactly 3/8" thick, it's always made for an interesting time when ordering new windows & doors and trying to specify a jamb thickness. 

I found out early that's it's best to order jambs thinner than needed and then apply the thickness of the jamb extension that you need.

 

[Holmz]

Out of curiosity... is there a reason for a desire to save the plaster?

Well if it's in good shape, it's a bonus round because it is a sound deadener and it's tough to damage. This is just a guess, however it can be 4-5 times more difficult to damage than drywall.
Houses in the US that were built in the early 50's usually used 3/8" plaster board (a variation of drywall) along with a coat of 3/8" plaster. However because the final coat of plaster was not always exactly 3/8" thick, it's always made for an interesting time when ordering new windows & doors and trying to specify a jamb thickness. 

I found out early that's it's best to order jambs thinner than needed and then apply the thickness of the jamb extension that you need.

You are correct in the sound deadening being fantastic.

I wonder if Minnesota is different than SoCal(?), as houses from the mid 60's were ofter Lathe-plaster.
I thought 3M may have been involved... (but they were not):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drywall

 

[Cheese]

Holmz...isn't it past you bed time? [poke]

I don't know...lathe & plaster isn't as sound absorbing as plaster board & plaster. The few times I've been to Cali I was always worried about the dreaded earthquake and feared falling into the pacific and who'd take good care of my Festools back in the breadbasket of America? The only time this fear did not provoke my angst, is when I was in wine country. [thumbs up] [thumbs up] [thumbs up]

3M...worked there for 8 years...they're involved in everything, kind of like the CIA...it's on a need to know basis. 

 

[mike_aa]

[member=30413]mike_aa[/member]
I did a bathroom in our house that was built in 1952. The mastic was very brittle and had turned a very dark brown. Sometimes the mastic came off of the tiles [mad], at other times it came off of the wall [big grin].

The part that made the big difference is if you can place the edge of the tool at exactly the interface between the mastic and the plaster and at about a 30-45 degree angle to the wall. That way the 130 will shear the interface and it comes off nice. Unfortunately if the tool is just a little above the wall surface, the bond between the tile and mastic is broken and now you still have to remove the mastic. 

However, that's when I used the Sandvik hand scraper with the carbide insert.
Place the scraper's carbide blade flat against the plaster wall and pull down quickly and forcefully, maintaining a lot of force on the head of the scraper so that it rides only on the plaster and doesn't start to ride up on the mastic.

Because much of the mastic is brittle (but not necessarily all) the scraper will break the interface of the mastic and plaster although at this point you're now only working a 2" wide area.

[member=44099]Cheese[/member]
Hey, thanks again!  That was a detailed and very helpful explanation.  I'm hoping the combination of the LS130 and the Vecturo/Supercut scrapers will be enough to get most of it.  I do have a variety of hand scrapers including some carbide for the missed stuff.  I removed some tiles and the plaster was in great condition.  Some areas like around the toilet will get tile or marble, but for the rest of it, I plan to prime and then paint after a light skim coat to fill in any marks left from the scraping.

[member=60789]mkasdin[/member]  [member=22]greg mann[/member]
The plaster is in great shape under the tile and it has a nice finish to it so I think sanding might end up doing more harm than good in this case.  But I guess I'll have to see when I get started on this project.  I hope I don't end up having to pull out the RAS115! 

[member=7659]waho6o9[/member]
Cheese is the one to thank.  I learned about the LS130 scraper blade by reading his post in an earlier thread.

[member=54742]idratherplaytennis[/member]  [member=40772]Holmz[/member]
FWIW, This house was built circa 1954 and the previous one I owned in the 1930's.  Both are in the Cleveland, Ohio area and both have what I believe was called rock lath, two foot by four foot sheets of gypsum board, nailed to the studs and coated with a scratch coat and finish plaster applied over that (pretty much what was described by Cheese earlier).  It's worth saving since it's a lot nicer and sturdier than drywall or plaster over wood lath and it's also fairly easy to patch or cut into when you need to.  It doesn't crack or separate from the lath like the old plaster with wood lath.

Mike A.

 

[Holmz]

Thanks [member=30413]mike_aa[/member] - this is an interesting thread. I wish you luck.

I have used the scrapers that [member=44099]Cheese[/member] mentioned...
A lot ski base repairs in the past before wood work.

An old valve from an engine makes a nice deal to put the fold-over burr on the edge of the scraper. The valves are found laying around every machine shop, junk yard or engine shop. Just get an old exhaust one, and not one of the fancy stainless racing intake valves.

 

[idratherplaytennis]

I wasn't under the impression it was lath and plaster (we've had property that was and is- renovated my grandparents home which was moved to Culver City in 1916, as well as the majority of our property [1945-1950/60s] being exactly what you describe, nailed on 1/2 inch beadboard with another 1/2 inch floated over it.

I'll buy the fact that it is sturdier for sure, I punched a hole from a bad TMJ pain driving me nuts in our house, and if it were the apartment I was working in at the time, I probably would have broken my hand. I will say I've come across two kinds of this, some of it that is sturdy and others where the plaster just rubs off the wall (maybe wasn't mixed correctly, but well enough to last the last 70 years).

I also was thinking about how when I go to do back splashes, I'm usually tiling and I find new drywall that's installed right far easier to tile over (things are probably different out there where you have extreme temperature changes where as the most we get in Los Angeles are like 55-95) where we just thinset over the green board. Then again- I'm also usually doing rentals although we have a bad habit of overdoing the quality at times.

Good luck on the job!

 

[Cheese]

Hey Mike...
I've attempted to save as much of the (let's just call it plaster board plaster) plaster in our 50's house as I can. It's incredibly solid, and provides a great noise barrier. I've done some work for friends on their 100+ year old houses that used wooden lath & plaster and if the surface is smooth, that's a good thing. If there are some ripples, then it usually needs to be looked at because that means some of the "keys" are no longer effective.

Holmz...
I'm not talking about a card scraper but rather a carbide bladed hand scraper. A traditional card scraper will not direct enough force to break the bond between the mastic and the plaster, however a carbide bladed hand scraper will. The card scraper is probably 6" in length while the hand scraper only has a 2" working element. The movement of the Sandvik hand scraper has to be forceful and deliberate.

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]

 

[Nat X]

Can you legally put tile over plaster? I was under the impression that it had to be cement board in a bathroom or kitchen even if it wouldn't see direct water exposure.

 

[Cheese]

FWIW...I was using the MFS 400 today and found this chunk of plaster wall in the box.  [eek]

You can clearly see the 3/8" layer of plaster board (drywall) and the scratch coat along with the top coat of plaster.

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