So just how good is Kapex dust collection?

[woodbutcherbower]

I've been a DeWalt 780 user since God was a kid, and I've always loved it's robust build quality, its accuracy, its adjustability, and it's all-round bombproof reliability - along with the 4.9-metre extension facility on the stand, since I buy most of my material in 4.2m, 4.8m or 5.4m lengths. I'm on my 3rd one, replacing them once they have around 4000 hours on the clock and they start to mechanically loosen up too much. But even hooked up to a CTL26 with a short (1-metre) 36mm hose I made for it, dust collection is absolutely hopeless. So I just shrug my shoulders, tell myself that mitre saw dust collection is always going to be problematical, and regularly stop work to clean up as my OCD won't allow me to work in a messy chaos.

But the last few days have pretty much been the final straw which has made me realise that I now absolutely have to consider some sort of alternative. The job involved installing almost 400 linear metres (1300 feet) of 225mm (9") high x 25mm (1") thick heavily-profiled skirting (baseboard) in an old flour mill which has been converted into apartments. The shapes were complex, with monumental numbers of bevel cuts to do - plus the fact that every external wall corner was curved, necessitating a huge amount of kerf cutting to bend the skirting around these corners. The amount of dust being created was frankly ridiculous.

So - a coupla very simple questions;

Is the 120's dust collection as good as it's cracked up to be?
Am I likely to experience an 'OMG' game-changing result?
How's it likely going to stand up to fairly robust site use?
And is there any way to mount it to the DeWalt stand?

Thanks in advance.
Kevin

 

[usernumber1]

mine is on a dewalt stand. i operate it without a mask unlike other machines. the vacuum did not do as much until i installed the 'saw stache'. especially on angled cuts.
i didn't get the fastcap version, i got a roll from the chinese komrades and hot glued it -https://www.fastcap.com/product/saw-stache

most of the dust that falls off is in the debris category. the vacuum collects all of the airborne particles. i have a PM2.5 meter in the shop to confirm

the saw is very close to permanent fixtures in the shop, like shelves etc, and i never have to dust anything. i do have to vacuum around the saw occasionally
you still have to avoid slamming your cuts like an animal. a manly jobsite where they cross cut lumber all day is probably not going to have enough patient workers for that and you can overwhelm the vacuum

there's a video somewhere on the forum where someone did a slow mo video. they wanted to see which method has the saw collect the most dust : full chop, full slide, gradual chop, etc.

maybe the biggest difference i see people complain is the way the handle is compared to dewalt.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Iam in the same boat, for a different reason. I have used a different Dewalt (DW717) since they were fist introduced (2009?) It is a 10" slider that takes up a ton of room, depth mostly. In the big shop, that doesn't matter at all. However, the impending retirement is going to change things. I really can't afford to wasted that much depth in a narrow shop.
My first thought was Makita, because they maintain that horizontal handle configuration that I prefer. The LS1019L sells for about $739. But I have never laid my hands on one in person.
The 36v cordless version is around $850, but as before never touched/tested one.

My hold-up with the Kapex has always been the vertical handle and trigger mechanism.
I like my miter station high and this could be a wrist angle problem, but if I am going to reconfigure it anyway, is it really?
Finally comes dust extraction. In the big shop, with a dust collector that is bigger than my truck and would suck the hood right off of it, the deficiencies of the Dewalt aren't that bad.
At home, I'm either dedicating a CT to it or branching off of the Jet dust collector. If I go Makita cordless, I have a triggering issue, solvable, but an issue nonetheless.
Is the Kapex that much better for dust? worth double the price? No one has ever really claimed that it's cut-quality is that much better and I have never had problems with what I have.

Opinions?

 

[squall_line]

there's a video somewhere on the forum where someone did a slow mo video. they wanted to see which method has the saw collect the most dust : full chop, full slide, gradual chop, etc.

There are a couple of threads by [member=16521]AofD[/member] with thermal imaging videos to compare dust extraction:
https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/thermal-imaging-festool-kapex/https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/...d-optimal-dust-extraction-on-a-festool-kapex/

maybe the biggest difference i see people complain is the way the handle is compared to dewalt.

This also ties in to the comment about hamfisting the Kapex vs. more "considered" jobsites. In my opinion, the horizontal handle on most mitre saws leads users to use it as more of a "chop-only" saw, whereas the vertical handle on the Kapex makes sense when you consider the intent is to use it as a slider more than as a chopper.  Also, for ambidextrous use, but that's a slightly more specious argument.

Those comments aside, the handle is definitely a love-it-or-hate-it part of the saw itself.

Kevin, I know you to be exacting and demanding of your equipment, and to have good sensibilities.  I can't imagine you wouldn't like the Kapex and appreciate it *once you get it dialed in*, and the dust collection IS better with a 'stache and better than most other saws, but I don't think you should expect to see a "Carvex vs P1CC" level of refinement and dust collection of the Kapex over the DeWalt, either.

 

[MikeGE]

I'm a hobbyist and don't rely on my tools for income.  I had the DWS780 and replaced it with the KS120 solely for the dust extraction.  I was happy with the DWS780, but could use it for only 10 to 15 minutes at a time before I had to take a break and allow the Record Power AC400 run for at least 20 minutes to clear the air.  I used a Dylos DC1700 to monitor the dust content in my fully enclosed basement shop.

The KS120 is connected to a CT36 and I no longer have to take a break because of the dust. I still have to clean up the chips the aren't collected by the CT36, but I don't worry about them.  Changing how I use the saw, thanks to the thermal imaging videos, had a positive impact on the dust and chip collection.

I miss the shadow line of the DWS780 and have not been won over by the twin LASER beams of the Kapex.  As soon as I figure out how to add a bright LED to the Kapex, I will be completely happy with it.  Festool offers the LED shadow line option for the KS60, but not the KS120.  For those who embrace the LASER, good for you.  If you have used a saw that has the LED shadow line, you will likely not be happy with the LASER.

 

[Lincoln]

As far as dust collection goes, better than any other mitre saw I've used, but wouldn't class it as 'game changing'. Overall, best mitre saw I've owned or used.

 

[Willy Eckerslike]

There are some Festool events coming up at Protrade Kev.  I'm not sure how soon or which branches but I'll try and find out.

There is a YouTube video around by Finish Carpentry (I think that's the name) where he tries the Kapex and pretty much the only thing he liked was the dust collection and the thing he hated over the DeWalt he was using was the handle.  Fast forward a few years and he now has the Kapex and regrets not getting it sooner.  I can't remember which DeWalt model he had.

 

[pettyconstruction]

I have read about the dust collection being about 95% ,
But I think it’s closer to 75%-80%.

As stated, it is better than most( all ) miter saws.

Oddly ,the main reason I got one was the light weight ,small foot print. Being a mobile worker,that is important to me.
The DC is really good and yo have 30 days to see if it’s a good fit.

Charlie

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[usernumber1]

There are some Festool events coming up at Protrade Kev.  I'm not sure how soon or which branches but I'll try and find out.

There is a YouTube video around by Finish Carpentry (I think that's the name) where he tries the Kapex and pretty much the only thing he liked was the dust collection and the thing he hated over the DeWalt he was using was the handle.  Fast forward a few years and he now has the Kapex and regrets not getting it sooner.  I can't remember which DeWalt model he had.

youtubers are fascinating animals. i'm sure talking to a camera changes you. Whats his name from Insider Carpentry, Spencer I think. That guy is beyond smart but because he had an early model kapex that the armature died swore it off and showed massive dislike over a period of years. Well guess who has a new kapex in his latest videos - and he addressed it too.

 

[twistsol1]

...My hold-up with the Kapex has always been the vertical handle and trigger mechanism. ...

Being left handed, I despise the horizontal handles on the right hand side of the saw. I was in the high school woodshop a few weeks ago and they had an old DeWalt saw on a stand with a vertical handle, but the trigger release was only on the left side of the handle so it couldn't be operated with the left hand.

Off the soapbox and on the question at hand.

As miter saws go it is better than most if not everything else on the market. It is the worst machine in my shop from a dust collection standpoint and I'm in the process of redesigning my miter station once again because I'm tired of the mess. Mine is connected to a CT15 with a 36mm hose about 1.5 meters long.

I would guess it gets about 80% of the sawdust, but have no actual data to back that up. It is just an impression. I know it is far better than my old delta was.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I've been reasonably happy with the dust collection on my Kapex (very first model released in OZ), but while working on a large white oak mantel I was double checking the angles, and considering I'm constantly lugging the saw around, it sort of blew away that it's still dead accurate. This really surprised me given how many years I've had it and manhandled/abused it. I've never had a luggable saw before that didn't develop some slop over time.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
most of the dust that falls off is in the debris category. the vacuum collects all of the airborne particles. i have a PM2.5 meter in the shop to confirm
snip.

[member=68525]usernumber1[/member] nailed it.

If you needed a second PM2.5 verifier, I'd be the one. With the air quality monitor in use, I now do not wear my N95 around the Kapex even if I don't turn on my air filtration system.

The Kapex's supreme dust collection DOES NOT mean dustless, like you see with a DF500. You'll see dust around the saw, especially the back, but it doesn't spill over you. If you need added effectiveness, get a second rubber boot and mount a sawtache to it and use it when needed. I always use the sawtache when making trench cuts.

About the handle, do not employ a dead grip on it when making saw cuts. Those who use a hand saw properly know to avoid any dead grip on the handle. The same principle applies here. Your wrist would thank you for using a moderate grip only. And you can make cuts after cuts like the Energizer Bunny because you don't wear your wrist and fingers out.

Festool says the Kapex collects up to 91% of the saw dust (36mm hose). The % might be measured in a lab environment. If and when you have the saw, make some cuts (say, 10 to 15) without any dust collection, clean the saw and the area. Do the same no. of cuts a second time with dust collection. Now you can see the behemoth difference.

 

[peter halle]

Kevin,  I am surprised you don’t already have one.  The dust collection with the 36 mm hose is good with that which was missed combined to your setup area-not floating in midair so as to cost you lots of cleanup time.  You’ve been in the trades and are adaptable, the handle wil work itself out.  The weight and the bevel will be loved.  Once you get that purchase under your belt, start looking for the UG stand and extensions.  The ability to quickly set up and move room to room is great.  I regret not buying mine while I was working.  I bought mine (the UG and extensions) after I retired.  I’ve had my Kapex for 13 years now and my only regret was how much I spent initially.

Peter

 

[Coen]

The DeWalt 780 is a different size category than the Kapex 120. But it's also on another dust collection category.

If you need both (cut capacity and dust collection) look at the Makita LS1219. It also 'solves' the issue of needing a lot of space behind the saw. The latter can also be had with Bosch GCM 12 GDL, but that one just sucks on the dust department compared to Makita LS1219L.

I advised my brother the Dewalt 780, prior to the existence of the Makita LS1219. If asked today I would advice the Makita.

But in reality 99,9% of cuts could also be made with a 254mm blade. Call it range anxiety.

Disclaimer: I don't own any of these. I have used the Kapex at a dealership (as employee), the DeWalt at my brother's place; both with same Festool CTL. The DeWalt is just bad at dust collection.
The Bosch is from 1:1 comparison videos; also sucks. The Makita also from videos; very good, almost Kapex like. If I had to buy I would get Makita LS1219. Only the weight, the few bad stories about accuracy and the lack of shadow line would possibly hold me back. The shadow line can be retrofitted.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

...My hold-up with the Kapex has always been the vertical handle and trigger mechanism. ...

Being left handed, I despise the horizontal handles on the right hand side of the saw. I was in the high school woodshop a few weeks ago and they had an old DeWalt saw on a stand with a vertical handle, but the trigger release was only on the left side of the handle so it couldn't be operated with the left hand.

As a fellow lefty, I know exactly what you mean but the DeWalt I have does not have that stupid secondary release, which makes them almost unusable to us.
Sadly, that might also be the reason it has been discontinued? Some safety regulations change? More cost effective to stop making them than to update the trigger somehow?
That and the 10" blade where the best features of that particular model.

[member=8955]Coen[/member] I appreciate your input on this. Although I can't stand 12" bladed miter saws, I can't see the 10" Makita being significantly different from the 12". Since it's already my battery platform of choice, the only real question seems to be corded or cordless. The claims of battery life along the lines of 190 cuts in 2 x 12s, over 300 in 2 x 4, are a lot more than I would need to do. Many times, I would do a lot more cuts in a day, but not in material like that. Plus, I already have several 5ah batteries.
I just don't know about the secondary trigger? Does the Makita have that?

 

[ChuckM]

Makita vs Kapex has been a subject of comparison for several years, and the discussions can be found in many forums, including the FOG.

This is one of the review videos on the two:


I use the Kapex for the business part of my woodworking activities, and so I enjoyed the tax benefit in the form of capital depreciation. Price-wise, it would have been difficult for me to justify the price difference if I had bought the Kapex solely for hobby use.

 

[Cheese]

Oddly ,the main reason I got one was the light weight ,small foot print. Being a mobile worker,that is important to me.
The DC is really good and yo have 30 days to see if it’s a good fit.

Charlie

That's the same reason I purchased the Kapex. Prior to that, at various times I owned 3 different Milwaukee sliders all of which were in the 65# to 70# plus region. The saw resides in the basement but during the warmer months I move the saw outdoors and shuttle it between the patio and the garage. That's a lot of movement, probably very similar to the professional that has to set-up and tear down every day. Not only were the Milwaukees heavy & cumbersome but the fence always needed to be tweaked every so often.

I've now owned the Kapex for 9 years and the registration is still where I originally set it. It's just so much easier to move.

I also adapted the Kapex to fit the Milwaukee contractors stand, which is similar to the DeWalt unit and that works well. It provides a platform to store pencils, a tape measure, a small square, material hold down clamps, zero clearance inserts and various adjustment/service tools.

However, I'm going to order the UG cart and wings to make moving the Kapex even easier.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Thanks to everyone who has taken time out to reply - I really appreciate it. The only way I'm ever going to find out if this saw's the one for me (and if the dust collection is as good an improvement as I'm hoping for) is to bite the bullet and spend time with it. I've ordered a Kapex from ProTrade (thanks Andy [member=71113]Willy Eckerslike[/member]) and I'm picking it up on Wednesday.

Festool in the UK don't offer the 30-day return guarantee, but they do offer 14 days which is more than enough. The reality is that I'll know within a few hours it's hitting the spot, and if dust collection quality (my main reason for considering the change as I explained in my initial post) is worth close to £1500. I'm sure that if this most-important-box-of-all gets ticked, the rest of the machine's features will quickly show their value as well. The handle is a concern having briefly tried one out - but I'll get used to it, all as part of the learning curve. The saw's price doesn't concern me in the slightest - it's all about the performance. It's a commodity being used to earn a living and to get the best possible results from. Although that I'll freely admit that this raised an eyebrow  [eek] [eek] [eek] [eek] [eek]

[attachimg=1]

I have nothing to lose, and maybe everything to gain. I'll let you know how I get along with it.

Thanks again to everyone for your kind advice and input.

Best wishes,
Kevin

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Hi Kevin,

I'm late to the party, but I'd add/supplement with the following thoughts:

-- Back when I had a KS-120, I liked it. The dust collection was definitely not 100%, but the percentage that escaped tended to be the larger chips, which formed a little halo around the cutting station, took less than a minute to clean up at the end of the day.

-- The wings/table extensions are a real "value-added" option not available as a stock offering with other saws. I know you can rig something up, but there's something to be said for an elegant, well-engineered, out-of-the-box solution.

The biggest key here is, the KS-120 is a precision cross-cutting tool that still requires some finesse/skill to get the best results. Knowing that you're already getting great results out of the Dewalt, I have no doubt you'll quickly adapt and have the skillset to maximize what the saw can deliver.

In terms of the upright handle, I found it very comfortable.

Good luck and be safe out there, looking forward to hearing your feedback once you put the machine to use.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=2726]Tom Gensmer[/member] Thanks buddy. Appreciate it.