Stanley to buy Black&Decker

[score0matic]

Here is some News http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5A154W20091103
Looks like De Walt has a new owner.
Craig

 

[peter halle]

May they be happy together.

Peter

 

[Inner10]

I hate stanley with a passion...I don't care for B&D either.

I'l drink to that. [big grin]

 

[AlexThePalex]

I hate stanley with a passion...

Heard the news they are going to buy B&D this morning. So what's your grieve with Stanley then? Can't say I know much about the company. I see their tools in the store and they seem to be of reasonable quality, although not top of the line, but for the rest, I got no clue. I'm just trying to assess what this take over might mean for DeWalt.

 

[Frank Pellow]

I hate stanley with a passion...I don't care for B&D either.

I'l drink to that. [big grin]

What about all the other brands owned by Black and Decker such as: Delta, Porter Cable, and Dewalt?  Do you hate all them too?

 

[Peter Hamilton-Scott]

When I first heard that B&D had taken over DeWalt I formed an idea that B&D would seek to use components from a remodelled production line to save on inventory and production costs. At the time, the DeWalt dealer I used to buy from was also concerned that quality would be affected. He said "perhaps the only difference will be the colour of the tools." I don't think that happened but it makes me draw parallels from the UK car industry. One of the great UK car successes is Land Rover which was a profitable cash-cow whose profits were used to shore-up the failings of other less profitable lines. Land Rover has been sold on (possibly more than once since then but I don't know). In the process, quality has deteriorated and the name of the illustrious marque has been tarnished. It's like a rich relative who is always being called upon to put up bail for other family members nicked by the cops.

I see the same with DeWalt now that Stanley is the owner. Stanley tools in the UK is a range that caters to the less discerning. A tape measure is a tape measure and no amount of window dressing will improve the concept. Each time I go to my local hardware stores, I've generally avoided Stanley products unless it solves a problem I can't address elsewhere. I almost see DeWalt and Land Rover exchanging similarly upsetting tales over a polystyrene cup of lukewarm coffee when they were used to drinking from the finest bone china.

I'm glad I switched to Festool. Mark my words, Festool, do not ever sell yourselves cheaply to anyone else. A lot of us now depend on the name and trust no other. [smile]

 

[AlexThePalex]

At the time, the DeWalt dealer I used to buy from was also concerned that quality would be affected. He said "perhaps the only difference will be the colour of the tools." I don't think that happened .......

DeWalt took over Elu about 15 years ago. The colour of the tools sure did change at that moment. DeWalt took all Elu's patents and designs, killed off Elu and then brought Elu's products on the market under the DeWalt name. Of course Elu was of an outstanding (German) quality and at the start those yellow repainted Elu tools were excellent too, but now 15 years later DeWalt's quality has severely deteriorated.

 

[Peter Hamilton-Scott]

DeWalt took over Elu about 15 years ago. The colour of the tools sure did change at that moment. DeWalt took all Elu's patents and designs, killed off Elu and then brought Elu's products on the market under the DeWalt name. Of course Elu was of an outstanding (German) quality and at the start those yellow repainted Elu tools were excellent too, but now 15 years later DeWalt's quality has severely deteriorated.

I never knew that about Elu. Thanks for updating my knowledge about them. I've bought most of my DeWalt tools over the past five years. They do the job for me when I need to use them but the weight of them compared to the Festool equivalents counts heavily against them, in my opinion. I find the Festools have superior ergonomics and that's another reason I'll keep my DeWalts on the sidelines and field Festool in my starting lineup. When I bought my 744XP portable table saw for example, it was sourced by my local dealer from Mexico. I don't know if DeWalt has an assembly line in Mexico but it seemed kind of unusual that I'd get a 220v saw from outside Europe when there are official lines in the UK. Perhaps it was classfied as a "gray" import? Either way it works fine but since I got my TS55, I'm finding fewer reasons to actually need the 744XP anymore.

Last Saturday I went to another dealer that took care of my warranty claim for my Fein MM. They had a DeWalt stand outside the shop. I walked past it, giving it nothing more than a cursory glance (head slightly raised in a condescending manner, eyes looking down, as if viewing an unfortunate waif through a pair of pince-nez). Inside the shop, the salesman asked me how I was enjoying my Festools. I believe I have become a snob of the worst order.

 

[Inner10]

So what's your grieve with Stanley then?

I've bought quite a bit of stanley, from prybars, chalklines, hammers, pliers, dykes, utility knives, blades etc.

Every item I've bought I have been dissapointed for the price I paid...I know they are not expensive tools by any stretch of the imagination but at their low price they are still overpriced. 

The dykes are rubbish, channelocks are better and cost the same.

Prybars are worse then the no-name ones that you ca get for 30% less.

Catspaws wasn't as good as an eastwing and cost more.

Utility knives and blades are so-so.

What really burns me is that all their stuff regularly goes on sale for 30% off, that sort of tells me that if I pay full pop them I'm getting screwed.  I realize hate is a strong word, but if stanley were to dissappear tommorow I wouldn't care.

What about all the other brands owned by Black and Decker such as: Delta, Porter Cable, and Dewalt?  Do you hate all them too?

Nope, like I said I just don't care for them all that much.  I own a decent amount of Dewalt, couple Delta and I think only a PC router.  And all their stuff is alright, its not outstanding but my life wouldn't change if their product quality changed.  Nor would it really affect me if the company started making bobby-pins instead of tools.
   

 

[Michael Kellough]

When I first heard that B&D had taken over DeWalt I formed an idea that B&D would seek to use components from a remodelled production line to save on inventory and production costs. At the time, the DeWalt dealer I used to buy from was also concerned that quality would be affected. He said "perhaps the only difference will be the colour of the tools." I don't think that happened but it makes me draw parallels from the UK car industry. One of the great UK car successes is Land Rover which was a profitable cash-cow whose profits were used to shore-up the failings of other less profitable lines. Land Rover has been sold on (possibly more than once since then but I don't know). In the process, quality has deteriorated and the name of the illustrious marque has been tarnished. It's like a rich relative who is always being called upon to put up bail for other family members nicked by the cops.

I see the same with DeWalt now that Stanley is the owner. Stanley tools in the UK is a range that caters to the less discerning. A tape measure is a tape measure and no amount of window dressing will improve the concept. Each time I go to my local hardware stores, I've generally avoided Stanley products unless it solves a problem I can't address elsewhere. I almost see DeWalt and Land Rover exchanging similarly upsetting tales over a polystyrene cup of lukewarm coffee when they were used to drinking from the finest bone china.

I'm glad I switched to Festool. Mark my words, Festool, do not ever sell yourselves cheaply to anyone else. A lot of us now depend on the name and trust no other. [smile]

B&D has owned DeWalt for forty or fifty years. They bought Dewalt when the only product was radial arm saws. B&D has been making portable electric tools for around 80 years. Their marketing difficulty came from the broad range of quality grades they produced under the same brand name. In the 60's and early 70's their industrial line of tools was as good as anyone's. (Porter Cable had more ergonomically designed tools though) The problem came when an ambitious beginners bought the cheapest tools they could afford (would have been a low end B&Ds) and worked them to death and then cursed the brand name without realizing they'd exceeded the duty rating of the tools. When those guys had enough money to buy a professional grade tool it wouldn't be another "crappy" B&D. By comparison, here in the US you couldn't buy a Makita that wasn't designed to be used continuosly yet the Makita didn't cost a whole lot more than the cheaper B&Ds. So, B&D had to revive the DeWalt brand name to be able to sell to pros. Buying Elu was a brilliant act on B&D's part bringing some advanced design into DeWalt and lifting DeWalt above the domestic competition.

Your fears for DeWalt have been realized in the dumbing down of Porter Cable since they were bought by B&D.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

So what's your grieve with Stanley then?

.......

Prybars are worse then the no-name ones that you ca get for 30% less.

Wow.  I can't imagine how you can screw up a prybar?

Can't wait to see the "Fat Max Unisaw" [wink]

Surely they will eliminate some of the overlapping product lines.  Do we need both B&D and Porter Cable?

At least both Stanley and DeWalt are yellow and black.....

I was encouraged by the stirrings of innovation at Delta, e.g., the new unisaw, hope this doesn't mean an end to that.

 

[Dan Clark]

Here's a list of Black and Decker brands:

    * DeWalt Power Tools
    * Porter Cable
    * Delta Machinery
    * Kwikset
    * Baldwin
    * Weiser Lock
    * Price Pfister
    * Emhart Teknologies
    * Oldham Blades
    * Black and Decker Firestorm

I'm sure the addition of Stanley and Bostitch (owned by Stanley) to this list of fine-qulaity tools will improve the tool landscape tremendously.  Just yummy!  I can't wait to run out and buy some!!!  (I'm quite sure they make good landfill!)

Dan.

p.s.  Dewalt is B&D's high-end, pro brand.  In positioning the B&D as the low-end, Porter-Cable as the mid-brand, and Dewalt has the high-end, B&D had a problem - in many cases, Porter-Cable was better than Dewalt.  However, since Dewalt had a nice yellow color (which appeals to discerning tool buyers), they decided to solve their Porter-Cable problem using that time-honored American tradition - lower the quality! 

 

[jeffinsgf]

Editorializing a bit here.

As a tool consumer, my BS detector goes off anytime that a company (Black & Decker) spends more effort running the financial side of the business than they do the development and manufacturing side.  The business of Black & Decker and Stanley is business, not making and selling tools.  That gobbledygook at the end of the article should be enough to convince anyone who works with their hands every day that all of these brands are to be avoided. 

It appears to me that Festool is in the business of making and selling power tools. They don't seem to be either looking for acquisitions or flirting with "acquire-ers".  Could be wrong.  Hope I'm not.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Editorializing a bit here.

As a tool consumer, my BS detector goes off anytime that a company (Black & Decker) spends more effort running the financial side of the business than they do the development and manufacturing side.  The business of Black & Decker and Stanley is business, not making and selling tools.  That gobbledygook at the end of the article should be enough to convince anyone who works with their hands every day that all of these brands are to be avoided. 

To be honest, I don't see why so many people feel like they have to trash B&D and DeWalt at every opportunity. The first two power tools I bought were B&D's, and they both performed admirably. I had a 125mm sander that was modeled like the ETS150/3 and I (ab)used it for over 16 years before it died on me. The 750w hammer drill I bought at the same time still serves me very well now for 17 years, though I have not used it that often since my DeWalt cordless takes most of the burden.

I have 3 DeWalts that stem from the Elu era and are 100% Elu designs with a yellow coat. All three of them have seen quite some use now, even though I'm not a professional, but they still perform at 100% after a good 10 years. Not even a speck of rust on them. I've heard differently about the rust aspect of some Festools here.

Service? Haven't had that much to do with them but what I had was positive. I ordered one article from B&D, a dust collection port for my sander and I got it in 3 days if I remember correctly. I once filled my DeWalt cordless drill up with gypsum dust. Was drilling a hole in the ceiling and the dust fell on my drill, making sure the directional switch wouldn't work anymore. 3 months out of warranty. They repaired it with no cost to me, out of warranty, while it was basically my own fault. Very quickly to, only 7 days. Only a short while ago my Elu angle grinder's spindle lock broke. I ordered some small new parts from DeWalt through the dealer where I bought it originally. Now ....... this took a while. Reading a lot of negative comments about DeWalt here on this forum I was becoming a bit disgruntled myself about DeWalt this time. After 7 weeks of not getting anything I emailed the DeWalt service center. Got a response almost immediately. Turned out they hadn't received any order from my dealer who had used an out of date fax number. They gave me the adress of an other dealer here in town where I should go. Ordered the stuff and got it in 4 days.

It appears to me that Festool is in the business of making and selling power tools. They don't seem to be either looking for acquisitions or flirting with "acquire-ers".  Could be wrong.  Hope I'm not.

Ever heard of "Protool"? Also, why exactly you think they changed name from Festo to Festool 9 years ago? Do you know they still run a separate line of industrial air pressure systems under the name Festo? Also heard of Tanos? All part of Festool's mother company. Believe me, Festool is in business for business too.

 

[Dan Clark]

My negative opinion of Dewalt and Black&Decker is based on bad experiences with their tools and with Dewalt customer service.  I have several Porter-Cable tools that are pretty decent.  But they are the old line.  The NEW Porter-Cable tools are mediocre at best.  I don't care what the company made 20 years ago.  I care about what I can buy now.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[jeffinsgf]

Alex,

Perhaps I was unclear as to my comment on the business of business.  You are much closer to Festool's home ground than we are here in the States.  I vaguely knew that they were part of a group, but it seems that the entire group produces quality and the focus of each unit is to design and build it to last, and make money selling it.  That I can understand and admire.

What I have a problem with is the current trend in the USA to buy your competitors out instead of just competing with them.  Whoever can fund the largest war chest is the winner, not the company that can produce and sell their product the best.

Your experience with DeWalt is (based on the timing) at that point where they were merely rebadging Elu tools.  You wouldn't want to replace those tools with what DeWalt is selling today (at least here you wouldn't).

 

[peter halle]

Festool is part of a holding company that also owns other companies.  It appears that those other companies are symbiotic to Festool.  The holding company, if I am not wrong, is still privately held by heirs of the founders.  Evolution is inevitable, but based on history, the company concentrates on what is their core business.  That being said, every business should have a business end other than its manufacturing and selling end.  For example, Lil Bubba - the greatest cabinet maker in the world - better be able to handle the non cabinet making aspects or hire someone to or else he won't need to worry about that sale sometime in the future.

Consolidating can make sense if the companies are similar in nature.  Eliminating redundancy is a way to increase profitability without the need to increase sales.  When I was in the construction end of a major retailer years ago, if I could do something in the construction end that saved 10 dollars - someone had to not sell 200 dollars worth of stuff.

Just something to think about.

Peter

 

[Neill]

Festool is part of a holding company that also owns other companies.  It appears that those other companies are symbiotic to Festool.  The holding company, if I am not wrong, is still privately held by heirs of the founders.  Evolution is inevitable, but based on history, the company concentrates on what is their core business.  That being said, every business should have a business end other than its manufacturing and selling end.  For example, Lil Bubba - the greatest cabinet maker in the world - better be able to handle the non cabinet making aspects or hire someone to or else he won't need to worry about that sale sometime in the future.

Consolidating can make sense if the companies are similar in nature.  Eliminating redundancy is a way to increase profitability without the need to increase sales.  When I was in the construction end of a major retailer years ago, if I could do something in the construction end that saved 10 dollars - someone had to not sell 200 dollars worth of stuff.

Just something to think about.

Peter

Peter,

Wasn't "Lil Bubba" Monica Lewinsky's nickname for Bill Clinton?  [tongue] [oops]

Neill

 

[peter halle]

Neil,

I thought that was "Mini Bubba".  Secret Service code name "Tiny".

I could be wrong of course.

Peter

 

[Neill]

Neil,

I thought that was "Mini Bubba".  Secret Service code name "Tiny".

I could be wrong of course.

Peter

Peter,

You are probably correct.  We all know how politicians are always exaggerating things. [eek]

Neill