Unscrupulous Craftsmen

[Bob Swenson]

The other day while doing twelve once curls at the legion bar
a fellow curler said that only about two out of twelve so called
craftsman were any good, all the rest just took the money and
ran with out ever backing up their work. Now this fellow curler
having won the pick six to the tune of about six mil is a natural
victim of the vultures. What has happened  to pride in craftsmanship ?
Lack of knowledge of the home owners should not make them victims
of unscrupulous tradespeople.

A pick up and a ladder  is not enough to qualify.
What say you ?
Bob

 

 

[Jesse Cloud]

I think your rich buddy is a sitting duck.  Sure there are unscrupulous and/or incompetent contractors - in any trade, but that seems like an awful lot.

There are also a lot of unscrupulous, clueless customers who have unrealistic expectations of a job and harass the contractor into losing money on a job.  Boy, I know I've learned never ever to suggest you might be able to make the color of the new work match the stuff that's already there.

Tell us Bob, what would you ask a potential contractor to determine whether he can be trusted or not?

 

[Per Swenson]

Hostages

Per

 

[ericbuggeln]

Mr. Swenson, the saying in my parts (Connecticut) is "Everyone with a pick up is a landscaper" ;D, but you could easily insert any trade, especially if times are hard.  I curse my father everyday for teaching me that if you are going to do something you have to be the best you can be at it.  This has so far set me apart from other more experienced contractors and allowed me to have a panic attack every Friday when I am racing to the bank. ??? :'(  I'm thinking long term and would like my company to be of the Swenson standards one day, Eric 

 

[Bob Swenson]

Jesse,

References, references.

We live in one of the most affluent counties in the Country (Morris County, N.J.)
Landscape, repair and renovation make the wheels  go round.

One friend spent months in a motel waiting for his Add-A-level to be finished.
A six week job. That contractor went down the tubes. lost his yacht and every thing,
just BS-ed too many people.

My youngest Son, who won't ask his father or his brother Per for advice, is waiting for his third
staircase to be replaced.

Pride in workmanship is rare.

Bob 

 

[Per Swenson]

We live in one of the most affluent counties in the Country (Morris County, N.J.)

Bob 

Dang it Dad!

I keep tellin people we be rednecks.

What are they gonna think now?

Sheesh :

 

[ccmviking]

    Around here I see it as the Homeowners are kinda setting themselves up for most of this.  We see'em hiring illegal immigrants with no Business /Contr. Lic., No Insurance, No workman's comp. etc.  They all want a deal and that's the start of things going bad.  People don't know how the contracts in their State are supposed to work and instead of doing a little homework they give 50% down payments and then have shelled out 80%-90% of the cash without 50% of the work being complete.  No inspections, no permits but they wanted a bargain.  You can't expect craftsmanship and overall job satisfaction when you just hire general laborer (and one that may not even be here legally).  That's our competition you know.  You should see the messes that we see.  There's a whole bunch of homes that people "remodel" that won't pass an inspection upon sale because of shoddy and  non-code work being performed on them. 

Chris... 

 

[ericbuggeln]

Chris, in my town, homeowners treat the inspector like the mall security guard with the vest and name tag.  No gun, no respect, Eric

 

[Greg B]

We live in one of the most affluent counties in the Country (Morris County, N.J.)

Bob 

Dang it Dad!

I keep tellin people we be rednecks.

What are they gonna think now?

Sheesh :

Per,

My wife used to be an estate manager for a family in Morristown and I visited there a number of times. I wlll vouch for you; there be plenty o' rednecks in that part of the country. Some hide it real well. Some gots money and some don't.

Greg

 

[b_m_hart]

It's hard to say.  I don't think that just because someone is looking for a bargain, they're at fault.  I think that some people just don't have much of a BS filter, and don't have a personal network built up to get trusted, verifiable references for work that they need done.  So, in their minds, the best way to break it down is to "get the best price".  Now, you guys that work on houses for a living know that this approach is laughable (I see it ALL THE TIME with companies and their data centers), but it is what it is.

For example, I'm having a bunch of system work done in my place (electrical is done, plumbing is under way).  I had a plumber come in from a reputable, well reviewed shop.  The guy must have taken me for a sucker or something, as he starts spouting out these ridiculous numbers as we're walking through.  Yes, that was my "estimate".  Nothing written. 

Thinking that we're about to get taken for a ride, we start asking friends about plumbers, get referred to a young gentleman that's just received his contractor license.  He's slowly building up a customer base to strike out on his own and leave his day job behind.  He estimates very slightly over half of what the other guys quote.  Asks for 1/3 of the quoted price deposit, rest upon inspector approval.

Now, I'm not a plumber, but I can see when something looks right, and when something doesn't.  He's pulled permits, his work is tidy and organized, and the welds look pretty even and smooth.

Now, my story may change by the time the work is wrapped up, but I doubt it.  We'll see.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Up here in Vancouver BC Canada we haven't been hit by the real estate correction like most in the US.

Everybody up here is renovating or building a new home, condo' are going up all over the place and I counted 9 cranes across the street from my workplace where the Olympic village will be placed for 2010. The whole area is being changed from a light industrial area to a condo village where the average price will be $600 per square foot.

People are paying about $220 to $250 a square foot to build their homes and that doesn't include the $700K lot it will sit on.

With all of the condo construction and home reno / new construction in this area everybody wants a pile of money even though they may not be fully qualified or the experience level is low.  A typical house can take a year to build cause you can't find any tradesman or we are simply short in supply!! This causes sub-par qualified tradesman charging an arm and a leg for poor work and that is why the industry has taken a hit or home buyers start to question "what happened to the Craftsman?"

Anybody in the US with any experience in the construction industry could make a pretty good living up here right now. It ain't a bad place to live either. Where else can you go downhill skiing in the morning and then go sailing on the ocean in the afternoon?

Cheers
Dan Clermont

 

[Michael Kellough]

It's hard to say.  I don't think that just because someone is looking for a bargain, they're at fault.  I think that some people just don't have much of a BS filter, and don't have a personal network built up to get trusted, verifiable references for work that they need done.  So, in their minds, the best way to break it down is to "get the best price".  Now, you guys that work on houses for a living know that this approach is laughable (I see it ALL THE TIME with companies and their data centers), but it is what it is.

For example, I'm having a bunch of system work done in my place (electrical is done, plumbing is under way).  I had a plumber come in from a reputable, well reviewed shop.  The guy must have taken me for a sucker or something, as he starts spouting out these ridiculous numbers as we're walking through.  Yes, that was my "estimate".  Nothing written. 

Thinking that we're about to get taken for a ride, we start asking friends about plumbers, get referred to a young gentleman that's just received his contractor license.  He's slowly building up a customer base to strike out on his own and leave his day job behind.  He estimates very slightly over half of what the other guys quote.  Asks for 1/3 of the quoted price deposit, rest upon inspector approval.

Now, I'm not a plumber, but I can see when something looks right, and when something doesn't.  He's pulled permits, his work is tidy and organized, and the welds look pretty even and smooth.

Now, my story may change by the time the work is wrapped up, but I doubt it.  We'll see.

Welds? As in steel, or just PVC solvent "welds"?

 

[graphex]

I've got to admit that one of my favorite shows is Holmes on Homes. The main guy - Mike Holmes - goes to all these botched renovations and shows some horrendous code violations, then he rips everything out and rebuilds it the right way. One of the things I like about the show is that he discusses some ballpark costs. While it is a Canadian show and in Canadian money, it helps to get some frame of reference for what things should cost.

As a first time homeowner, I really don't know what something should cost or could cost, or how long it should take to get done. I'm great at estimating for websites in cost and time, but that's my business. I'd really like it if more renovation shows ballparked some of the costs and timeframes they were looking at. Even if it is in a different region, it helps people get an idea of the relative difficulty of things.

There was also this awesome show, I only saw it once, it was called something like "renovation realities". Basically this guy was trying to DIY an addition of a hallway to his house in a week. He estimated everything too low by about a factor of 10 and it all went horribly awry, in kind of a "slap your forhead and try not to laugh" way.

 

[Bill Wyko]

I have a lot of customers that have no idea what the end results will be. They just know that if there dealing with me, they're  gonna get their monies worth. That's why I get most of  the high end car audio in Tucson. I back my work with a lifetime warranty too. I also try to educate my customers as to what to expect from anyone, even if they go somewhere else. I've seen so many people get straight $^&%ed by other shops and it makes me sick. All they do is create a cloud over an industry, and it can be any industry, that makes people never want to do something special again. I have no idea how business owners and workers like that live with them selves. They'll have to own up to it some day. I like to work as though God's watching

 

[b_m_hart]

Welds? As in steel, or just PVC solvent "welds"?

As in the solder used on the copper pipes.

 

[Eli]

Holmes on Homes. The main guy - Mike Holmes - goes to all these botched renovations and shows some horrendous code violations, then he rips everything out and rebuilds it the right way.

Is that the same guy who uses screws in joist hangers?

I like to work as though God's watching

When I work, I pretend I'm god, and watch myself  ;D

You can't sell something that doesn't exist, and the assurance of quality and the trust to let you complete something correctly is something you have to educate people to. Otherwise it doesn't exist. If everyone understands everything, usually nobody comes away feeling like they got conned.

I will try and do everything within my power to please.

Sometimes, people don't want to hear something won't work exactly the way they want. I will warn them of possible outcomes, educate them to the consequences and responsibility, politely release myself from future liability, and then happily accept their money to install to their preferences. I won't refuse to complete work just because I don't agree on the style or method.  ;D

I won't tack a bunch of crap together, I won't be rushed in the making of strong, safe, and to code framing, even if the window dressing, paint, wall color, fixtures, etc. doesn't suit my taste. To be fair, you only hear the story from the HO's standpoint a lot of times. I could tell stories (but I won't) about people who drove me batshit trying to please them. I've walked out. It happens.

I think it's hard, because people have very high expectations about how difficult or easy certain tasks are. It's quite common for me to ask exactly how much money people are looking to spend, not as a method to milk everything out of them, but so we can determine the scope of work they can afford. I cost what I cost. Materials cost what they cost, plus a markup if I'm picking stuff up or picking it out.

 

[ccmviking]

    There is sure to be a cost difference in hiring someone like us that pulls around over $25,000 worth of tools, has over a million dollar liability coverage, has workman's comp. ins., and does all the multi-tasked (Design, Plumbing, Electrical, Flooring, Cabinetry, etc.) work ourselves.  It's much less of a hassle for the homeowner not having to deal with a bunch of different trades plus they are protected.  California probably causes people to be more paranoid about this stuff because of the many lawsuits.  If you invite someone into your home and they get hurt your liable.  If they are fully insured their insurance is there to back them up, if they are not, yours will have to and if it's not enough your personal assets will.  Someone driving around in a pickup with a tool bag would be hard to compete with on an overhead basis.  Homeowners need to make sure they are protected just as well as Contractors should run their business correctly and ensure they are protecting their clients.  What would happen if you brought someone over to look at work you did at someone's house and they fell down, something fell on them, etc.?  People always worrying about the dollar only and not all facets of the business is why that piece of crap Walmart is as big as it is.  People don't seem to mind stepping over a couple of dirty diapers and a pool of motor oil to get some cheap toilet paper. 

Chris... 

 

[Eli]

All that and I didn't even work in my favorite descriptive term of moonlighting handymen......

"Trunk-Slammers!"*

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

*said by I forget who, over on JLC

 

[dirtydeeds]

unscupulous craftsmen

whats gone wrong with american spelling? shouldnt it be without the third "u", ie unscrupulos  (like color) :

here we call them "cowboys" we dont dignify them with second word "craftsmen"

but we are at a disadvantage

there is no such thing as a carpenters "ticket", you dont HAVE to HAVE formal carpentry qualifications to call yourself a "carpenter" nor do you HAVE to have a ticket to work as a labourer or a hairdresser

in england you can call yourself anything

THE ONLY REAL EXCEPTIONS IN BUILDING ARE

corgi registered to work on gas, electrical qualifications to do electrics

lets be honest, i dont have carpentry qualifications

however i do have public liability insurance of 2 million quid (about 4 million dollars) that covers me for my carpentry work

that costs me shy of 200 quid a year (about 400 dollars)

we dont have to proove the qualifications to the insurance company AND you do NOT you get a discount from them if you have the qualifications

next thing

my insurance specifically doesnt cover me for formwork because of the structural calculations required

however if i was to work for a formwork company i am covered for the carpentry aspect as long as i work to the drawings and calculations and i am supervised.

 

[Per Swenson]

Hey DD,

I don't understand.

You have to register with this guy

to do plumbing and electrical?

[attachimg=#]

Either I'm iggnint or the Isle is truly going to the dogs.

Per