Water vs. Alcohol Based Dyes

[grbmds]

I used water based dye today. I was expecting to be able to make the final color as dark as I'd like, but the result was only a very light color (blue in this case) on solid birch. When I used an alcohol based dye, I could control how dark the color was to the point that, while the grain showed through, it was very dark. Admittedly the alcohol based dye was black. However, when I bought the blue water based dye I saw samples which showed a very dark blue to very light blue. When I was unsuccessful with the blue dye, I went over it with the black dye with the same result as previously - I was able to make it as dark as I'd like (ultimately leading to another problem which I posted under another topic).

What is the difference? Is there something I should have done first with the water based dye or the wood to get a darker end result?

I ended with 220 grit but, as I said, that didn't affect the result with the alcohol based dye.

 

[tjbnwi]

Water takes longer to dry. It may get darker when it dries.

Tom

 

[grbmds]

Drying wasn't the problem. The water based dye just lay on the surface. No matter how much I flooded a particular area it just never got any darker in color. The black alcohol based dye just soaked in right from the start both times I have used it. Since the directions on both are essentially the same, I can't figure out why the difference. The problem was I couldn't find the right color alcohol based dye and the water based was just right for color, just not for results.

 

[Cheese]

Water has greater surface tension than alcohol. That's the reason the water "just laid on the surface". Try sanding using 150 or 180 grit instead if you're using a water based product. It should decrease some of the surface tension.

 

[semenza]

Water has greater surface tension than alcohol. That's the reason the water "just laid on the surface". Try sanding using 150 or 180 grit instead if you're using a water based product. It should decrease some of the surface tension.

Yup, was just going to post the same thing.

I use water based dyes. I have had the same problem. Also try mixing it about twice as strong as recommended. And second coats  work better after it is really thoroughly dry, not just dry to the touch.

Seth

 

[Blackberry]

I use 1/2 water & 1/2 alcohol and I typically add more dye than it calls for.  I could be doing something wrong but it seems to work for me.

 

[grbmds]

Thanks. Part of my problem seems to be that I bought ready mixed dyes. This didn't seem to be a problem with the alcohol but, with water based, from what you say, I should just mix my own and then not sand with as fine a grit of sandpaper. I have one more set of drawers to make and they could be dark blue also. I'll try these suggestions, including letting it dry more before a second coat.

Can I just buy additional blue dye to mix into the water based pre-mix? I assume I can but I don't know.

 

[tjbnwi]

Trans Tint or Mixol dye.

Tom

 

[grbmds]

Trans Tint or Mixol dye.

Tom

So you can just add this to premixed water based dyes to either change the color or make it deeper?

 

[wkearney99]

Right, you mix the dyes first and then apply that to a test piece.  See how the color develops.  Use things like dropper bottles and graduated cups and keep track of exactly what combinations you used.  That way you can make larger batches once you find the desired coloring.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=32933
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/147283A/Mixing-Cup-12-Pint.aspx

Note, it's not uncommon to use a dye first and then apply a stain.  The dye penetrates the wood and then the stain pigments lay on top of that.  General Finishes has a fantastic retail store display that shows how their products can be combined.  VERY helpful in seeing how it'd look (generally on a maple and an oak sample).  You really have to see it in person as website colors never quite look right.

https://generalfinishes.com/retail-wood-finishing-products

You can also use a VERY thin layer of your top coat (varnish, shellac, lacquer) as a conditioner on the raw wood first.  This can help tone down the chance of blotching on certain kinds of woods.

 

[Bohdan]

Water has greater surface tension than alcohol. That's the reason the water "just laid on the surface". Try sanding using 150 or 180 grit instead if you're using a water based product. It should decrease some of the surface tension.

In farming we have a similar problem with sprays and the solution is to add a wetting agent (detergent) to the mix.

Wouldn't adding some detergent to the mix lower the surface tension and allow the water based dye to soak in.

 

[grbmds]

Right, you mix the dyes first and then apply that to a test piece.  See how the color develops.  Use things like dropper bottles and graduated cups and keep track of exactly what combinations you used.  That way you can make larger batches once you find the desired coloring.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=32933
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/147283A/Mixing-Cup-12-Pint.aspx

Note, it's not uncommon to use a dye first and then apply a stain.  The dye penetrates the wood and then the stain pigments lay on top of that.  General Finishes has a fantastic retail store display that shows how their products can be combined.  VERY helpful in seeing how it'd look (generally on a maple and an oak sample).  You really have to see it in person as website colors never quite look right.

https://generalfinishes.com/retail-wood-finishing-products

You can also use a VERY thin layer of your top coat (varnish, shellac, lacquer) as a conditioner on the raw wood first.  This can help tone down the chance of blotching on certain kinds of woods.

Unfortunately my experience was with General water based dyes and the problem was not too much color. It was a premixed blue that the sample in the store showed could be either light blue or dark blue. I wanted the dark blue, but  no matter how long I left it on the solid birch I was using it would get no darker than a very washed out blue. I do have other blue concentrated dye I've bought since then so I can try to darken it up. I will experiment by mixing but the initial result was disappointing since I had great success with alcohol based dyes.

 

[tiralie]

I always pre-condition close grained wood like maple and birch with a wash of distilled water before I stain. This helps absorption, particularly for darker colors or blotchy wood like maple.
General has a retail premixed dye and a commercial dye system. The retail dye has a small percentage of polyurethane added, which acts as a binder. The general commercial dye system has a different base.
General retail dyes do not soak into these close grained woods very deeply, because the small percentage of polyurethane they add. This polyurethane also tends to make it dry more quickly than a pure dye mixed with alcohol and water would.  In my experience you can achieve a deep color but it's easier to spray it on in light coats rather than wiping it on because a lot of the pigment sits on the top of the wood and when you re-wipe to get more color on it tends to remove it.
Tim

 

[grbmds]

I always pre-condition close grained wood like maple and birch with a wash of distilled water before I stain. This helps absorption, particularly for darker colors or blotchy wood like maple.
General has a retail premixed dye and a commercial dye system. The retail dye has a small percentage of polyurethane added, which acts as a binder. The general commercial dye system has a different base.
General retail dyes do not soak into these close grained woods very deeply, because the small percentage of polyurethane they add. This polyurethane also tends to make it dry more quickly than a pure dye mixed with alcohol and water would.  In my experience you can achieve a deep color but it's easier to spray it on in light coats rather than wiping it on because a lot of the pigment sits on the top of the wood and when you re-wipe to get more color on it tends to remove it.
Tim

I appreciate all the information. However, my original question was about the difference between alcohol and water based dyes. With the General alcohol based pre-mixed dye I use, I got a nice deep color and was able to wipe it off to make it just the correct dark I wanted. With the water based dye (General also) pre-mixed, I was only able to get a light color. The two differences were, in one case I was using alcohol based and the other water based and the alcohol dye was black while the water based was blue. Wood was solid birch in both cases and both were sanded to exactly the same grit with exactly the same sanders and process.