What's a bigger game changer? Kapex or CMS?

[es07Eric]

I'm getting ready to make another addition to the shop.  I'm looking to replace one of my existing tools and I'm looking at adding either the Kapex or the CMS GE Set.  I currently have a 12" Hitachi (non-sider) and a Kreg bench top router table with a PC 690 mounted under it.  All things willing, I plan to eventually replace both, but one has to come first.

Being a hobbyist, I obviously don't NEED to replace either one of these kits.  I seem to use both equally with the time I spend in the shop and the things I'm building; both are EQUALLY "painful" to use and throw around about the same amount of dust and debris with a little more on the router side.  I have a Dust Deputy and Shop Vac to tame the dust from these tools that I move between the two. 

I'm looking for:
- better dust collection/control
- improved accuracy
- increased utility (perform tasks not possible or better/easier/repeatable with the previous tool it's replacing)
- safer (or at least feel safer to use)
- better workflow between tasks (with the use of Festool, it's easy to get into a rhythm, both existing tools disrupt said rhythm)

I primarily make picture frames, and that is the reason I got into Festool.  If you don't know already, my main gig is photography.  I make the frames because I shoot/print non standard aspect ratios and offer my clients frames so that they don't:
1. Destroy the composition by having their images printed to match "off the shelf" frame sizes
2. Match the frame style to the print in regards to feel/look so that there is continuity in the print and frame combination
3. Increase profit margins by offering custom framing in our business

I route profiles on the router table with various bits depending on the requirement; I cut 45 degree miters on the Hitachi,  this is how I use my existing kit.  Lately, I've been using the MFT/3 and TS75 to cut the miters simply for tighter miters.  I've also been using my OF 1400 free hand to route the profiles and relief for the glass/matting/print/backing.  I don't want to continue to do both as it's a hassle as you can imagine, but it currently produces the best results with my current kit.  The latest addition of the Domino has seriously improved my builds!

In my off time, I have been making furniture.

Thanks in advance for your time and feedback.

Cheers,
Eric

 

[peter halle]

I'll step in.  Disclosure:  I own both.

There are a ton of miter saws and also router tables out there.  The CMS compliments the Festool system beautifully.  The Kapex sets up it's own system withe the stands available.

For your situation - stationary - I would suggest you look at the Kapex.  Using that will be efficient than what you are doing now.  The router bit determines the beauty and saleability of the frame, but the miter will kill you.

Peter

 

[Neathawk Designs]

I don't own the CMS ( but really want one).  I would go for the Kapex - its a huge improvement over a non-sliding Hitachi.  I think going to the slide alone is a big difference - then you throw in all the other great benefits such as dust collection and a super smooth cut.  I do own a Kapex.

 

[RKA]

Given the choice between the two, I'd do the CMS simply for safety reasons.  Routing frame pieces free handed with the 1400 sounds a bit iffy.

 

[WoodWhisperer]

I don't own a CMS but I do know that for what I do most the time, the miter saw was the biggest mess maker.  The Kapex has saved a lot of clean up time and made the air cleaner to work in.  That's just the beginning of the Kapex story!!!  Gook luck

Sean

 

[tjbnwi]

I own both. Start with the Kapex, add the CMS in time.

Tom

 

[dltflt]

I only own the Kapex but I would definitely buy the Kapex first.

 

[shed9]

Of the Kapex and the CMS router option I would say the Kapex has no rivals in terms of dust collection, whereas there are viable non-Festool router options that compete at this level.

Also, is the MFT/3-VL CMS extension available in your region? If so I would have thought this would be a better complement than the GE CMS to your system as it will attach directly to your MFT increasing work area, albeit with a little hassle switching between work roles. Might work out cheaper as well.

As others have said, I would go the Kapex route. Whilst not owning any of the stated equipment, I asked myself a similar question recently and my own conclusion was the Kapex - mostly based on dust collection and accuracy.

According to the FedEx update it should be with me in around 8 hours  [big grin]

 

[es07Eric]

Thanks to all that replied, I appreciate it!  Looks like the general consensus is the Kapex!

I'll step in.  Disclosure:  I own both.

There are a ton of miter saws and also router tables out there.  The CMS compliments the Festool system beautifully.  The Kapex sets up it's own system withe the stands available.

For your situation - stationary - I would suggest you look at the Kapex.  Using that will be efficient than what you are doing now.  The router bit determines the beauty and saleability of the frame, but the miter will kill you.

Peter

This really hits the nail on the head!

I don't own the CMS ( but really want one).  I would go for the Kapex - its a huge improvement over a non-sliding Hitachi.  I think going to the slide alone is a big difference - then you throw in all the other great benefits such as dust collection and a super smooth cut.  I do own a Kapex.

I've owned nothing but chop saws, the thought of a slider is quite appealing!

Given the choice between the two, I'd do the CMS simply for safety reasons.  Routing frame pieces free handed with the 1400 sounds a bit iffy.

The stock is quite wide, the narrowest stock I work with is typically no smaller than 3.5" and the OF 1400, even with it's massive opening sits nicely on the stock.  Once the stock is routed front and back, I then make the miter.

I don't own a CMS but I do know that for what I do most the time, the miter saw was the biggest mess maker.  The Kapex has saved a lot of clean up time and made the air cleaner to work in.  That's just the beginning of the Kapex story!!!  Gook luck

Sean

My current saw seems to spew dust everywhere but through the dust port!

I own both. Start with the Kapex, add the CMS in time.

Tom

Thanks Tom, that seems to be the general consensus.

I only own the Kapex but I would definitely buy the Kapex first.

+1 for the Kapex, thanks Don

Of the Kapex and the CMS router option I would say the Kapex has no rivals in terms of dust collection, whereas there are viable non-Festool router options that compete at this level.

Also, is the MFT/3-VL CMS extension available in your region? If so I would have thought this would be a better complement than the GE CMS to your system as it will attach directly to your MFT increasing work area, albeit with a little hassle switching between work roles. Might work out cheaper as well.

As others have said, I would go the Kapex route. Whilst not owning any of the stated equipment, I asked myself a similar question recently and my own conclusion was the Kapex - mostly based on dust collection and accuracy.

According to the FedEx update it should be with me in around 8 hours  [big grin]

I most certainly considered the CMS VL, my concerns of this option are:
- removing the fence when in MFT/3 cross cut mode (while I would most certainly appreciate the extra surface area for outfeed)
- no ability to add the outfeed extension, while I did notice it is slightly larger than the GE, is it sufficient?
- while I currently have no desire or need to make my tools mobile, the idea of the dependency of the MFT is somewhat a concern
All of the above may be due to my limited exposure to the VL as I've seen plenty of GE versions at my local stocking dealers.

As far as the other table options, I have come to the conclusion that there is no easy out of the box solution to mount my OF 1400 into a table other than the CMS?

Cheers,
Eric

 

[RC]

I agree with previous posters on the Kapex / slider first.

I do suggest you have a look at the threads on FOG about adapting an Incra LS positioner with the MFT-VL CMS attachment to have a good repeatable fence for your router/saw in the module. The Festool fence that comes with the CMS-OF set is in my opinion its worst component.

Precision Dogs also has a quick attachment plate for the LS positioner to your MFT/3 to make the removal of the fence a breeze.

I have the Incra LS supersystem and the Plate, but still waiting for my MFT-VL to arrive due to DHL not wanting to carry it to me from Germany. -> Had to buy locally and it has a 4 week delivery time :-(

 

[RC]

Oh yes, and with the CMS-GE, which I also have, you can use your MFT/3 as an outfeed table but you are quicly limited for width (without the expensive extension table + optional fence) when using the GE as a table saw with the CMS-TS modules.

 

[Kev]

If you're not in the NANIA world, the CMS is by far a bigger game changer than just the KAPEX.

Now game changer needs to be in your context. I'll take an accurate cut over a pretty profile any day, so I'd choose KAPEX first, CMS router table second if limited.

 

[Sparktrician]

As far as the CMS goes, I would not get the VL for exactly the reasons you mentioned.  I prefer to use both infeed and outfeed table extensions on my CMS-GE for better accuracy when routing longer pieces.  This necessitates moving the power switch (IMESHO) for safety reasons due to the interference of the infeed table.  And yes, the Kapex would be first in your situation. 

 

[campbellcraft]

Agreed Kapex first. I've never been successful posting photo/video to FOG. If you would like some pictures of my CMS-VL/Incra set up PM me  an email I can send to.

 

[shed9]

Look what arrived through my door this morning  [big grin]

This should help you decide and push that buy button on the Kapex.

 

[es07Eric]

I agree with previous posters on the Kapex / slider first.

I do suggest you have a look at the threads on FOG about adapting an Incra LS positioner with the MFT-VL CMS attachment to have a good repeatable fence for your router/saw in the module. The Festool fence that comes with the CMS-OF set is in my opinion its worst component.

Precision Dogs also has a quick attachment plate for the LS positioner to your MFT/3 to make the removal of the fence a breeze.

I have the Incra LS supersystem and the Plate, but still waiting for my MFT-VL to arrive due to DHL not wanting to carry it to me from Germany. -> Had to buy locally and it has a 4 week delivery time :-(

Yes, I have been following the threads on the LS system.

If you're not in the NANIA world, the CMS is by far a bigger game changer than just the KAPEX.

Now game changer needs to be in your context. I'll take an accurate cut over a pretty profile any day, so I'd choose KAPEX first, CMS router table second if limited.

It would be nice to have one base and multiple modules.  Unfortunately, one can only dream about having all the inserts for the CMS… this side of the pond anyway.

Agreed Kapex first. I've never been successful posting photo/video to FOG. If you would like some pictures of my CMS-VL/Incra set up PM me  an email I can send to.

Will do, thanks for the offer!

Look what arrived through my door this morning  [big grin]

This should help you decide and push that buy button on the Kapex.

Very nice! [big grin]

Thanks again, looks like a Kapex is in my very near future… maybe next week I'll pick one up.  Since so many contributed, I think I'll take it to the studio for an official shoot before I set it up in the woodshop!  [tongue]

Cheers,
Eric

 

[grbmds]

I guess my answer will be contrary to the line of this thread. If you are a hobbyist (like I am) and you own a Hitachi 12" Slide (like I did until I sold it after buying and using the TS55 REQ and MFT3) and you do picture frames, you might consider waiting on the Kapex. I made a picture frame recently using the TS55 and MFT with the addition of some Parf dogs. Once you have fence parallel to the MFT holes and the guide rail square to the fence and insert the dogs in holes to create a 45 degree line, you can cut perfect 45's for framing. I did it once with a minimum of setup and I have never cut more perfect miters. Given the dust collection of the saw and accuracy of the fence, table, dogs combo, I can't think of a need for a miter saw if you are a hobbyist other than it is a great tool. I would sit tight for awhile and get some experience with the track saw and table. If you don't like using the fence and it is too much trouble to keep square, there are numerous options on the market for various dogs - Parf dogs, Quas dogs, Rip dogs and stops, etc. With these accessories you can set a guide rail square to the piece you're cutting and find a way to create the orientation for perfect miters. I have never missed an opportunity to buy a tool, but have found that I don't need a miter saw (period). I made my own router table years ago and, while I can think of a number of improvements to it and upgrades, it still serves the purposes I need it for. So, maybe make your own. You can buy the router table top at any number of places and websites; all accurate and able to accommodate most routers (Woodpeckers even had their tops being sold as "seconds" recently for less than normal). Just something to think about before investing the kind of money required for a Kapex or the router table. If I were going to buy something it would most likely be the router table first since you can already do accurate picture frames and many other projects on the MFT with the track saw.

 

[Mitchy5104]

Neither they're both a complete waste of money!  You should also buy the $400 festool stool, its a game changer! 

 

[bkharman]

Neither they're both a complete waste of money!   You should also buy the $400 festool stool, its a game changer! 

I just looked and a majority of your posts are on or borderline trollish.  No need to slam folks on this forum.  If you aren't a true fan of Festool, then mosey along.

Good day sir...