Who needs a jointer?

[Nigel]

I was squaring/straightlining some stock using my table saw yesterday when it occurred to me that maybe it's not that obvious a technique.

The longer the fence the better.

First pass with the concave side against the fence.[always put the concave against the fence]

Second pass with the newly straightened and flat side on the table.

You now have a face side and square edge.

Next move to the thicknesser and plane off the opposites to you're face side and square edge.

Then reverse to plane you're face side and square edge.

The advantage is you can remove a lot off material quickly [even if you have a jointer]

Obviously you're limited to 'jointing' the height of cut of you're tablesaw.

It's a very quick way to get straght lines and square edges but if you're in the habit of checking you're stock with an electron microscope then maybe it's not the right tecnique for you  [unsure]

For clarity,when I say jointer I mean a long bed planer where the wood passes over the knives.A thicknesser is a box the wood passes through pulled by rollers and it does what it's called.
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[Alan m]

i wouldnt reconmend doing that way with such a short fence. when the far point passes the end of the fence  the board will move in against the fence first off this will give a curved cut but also posibly cause kick back.
if the fence was longer (maybe put a ply face on it) or attach a ply straight edge to the piece it would be a lot safer.
a track saw will do the same thing

a jointer (planer over here) is needed to flatten the face of the board first anyway. if the board had a very pronounced concavity to the edge then this aproach might be faster than  planing it off.

 

[Timtool]

i work allot with hardwood slabs that rarely are flat or straight, i prefer to get a straight edge to them on the tablesaw (it's called edge lining?) my sliding panelsaw is designed for this, i don't use the fence (which would need to be twice as long as the piece) but i clamp the slab onto the wagon in a manner to only cut away the bark or sapwood, then i just push the wagon forward and the saw cuts a straight edge. from there i can continue with the fence and rip the slab further using that straight edge against the fence.

it doesn't replace my jointer at all, only when the bow is too extravagant will i use the tablesaw. the wood straightened on the tablesaw is always jointed afterward anyway.
but like you said it's a viable technique for people who don't have a jointer, even though i think the jointer is the second must have tool after the tablesaw.

 

[BobKovacs]

That looks like a great solution, provided that you've got a perfectly straight 24' fence to run your 12' long stock against.  Everyone has one of those, right???  [blink]

 

[fidelfs]

It is not safe for so many reasons.  It is better if you attach an streight edge to one side of the piece and use it against the fence.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

That technique is only going to work for pieces thick enough to safely be pushed on edge after that first cut.  Since you're also limited by the maximum cutting height of the blade, that leaves a fairly narrow range of dimensions that this will work for.

 

[bonesbr549]

Well, technically I would say you would have partial success, but you are very limited in the height the blade can be extended above the table, and that presents just a whole host of issues from a safety perspective.  You are also assuming that you have no twist or bow some will refer to board having wayne.  If all your boards are nice and strait and only cup maybe.  You don't ention what blade you use or your saw make or model.  You may find you get some slight wobble and that will through you off.

I now have a 12" jointer and it's a god send and I can deal with any issue a board will shove at me.  Prior to that purchase I had a small delta 6" jointer that was a POS.  To address it's short comings I switched to a hand planes.  And to be honest I was much happier.  I used a scrub plane to knock down the rough outter edge of the board.  I then used an old #7 jointer plane and winding sticks.  You'd be surprised how true and fast that actually is to user your eye and those winding sticks on both ends of the board.  I had a low angle Jack for the curly stuff that has tear out issues.  It worked great and you don't need ear protection!  If you'd like to consider it, get Rob Cosman's Rough to ready! Great DVD I reccomend it.  Once I had one surface flat and an adjoining edge at 90 then used the planner and TS to finish it.   

 

[Nigel]

Believe me chaps it works and very well.

Please don't take the sketch as perfectly to scale, it's not,that midget woman doesn't help!

As I said the longer the fence the better.I'll see if I can extend it...
I also pointed out the limitations due to saw blade depth.
It's fairly obvious you wouldn't joint wide narrow boards like this but for squarish stuff it's very rapid.
If you think about it it's a jointer on it's side with a saw blade instead of cutters.
The drawing is well exgagerated to make the point.
I use a saw with 125mm cut.I never had a safety issue,Why would I?
I guess you have to try it to see huh?

 

[GPowers]

You could also use a track saw. Only problem is you might be limited on the depth of cut.

 

[Nigel]

You could also use a track saw. Only problem is you might be limited on the depth of cut.

Yes you can as you say.

I was straight lining and squaring 36 of 45mm x 30mm x 1800 so the tracksaw is no good....

I've now edited my crappy sketchup.

 

[Timtool]

If you think about it it's a jointer on it's side with a saw blade instead of cutters.

actually lol i was once in a pro woodshop where they had a pre-historical jointer powered by leather belts and stuff that doubled as a rip saw.
so you have a regular jointer, but on the jointer arbor left side there is also a sawblade mounted! so while they were jointing they were bending over this unprotected spinning sawblade  [scared] literally inches away from their chest. the table could be raised to cover the blade but they didn't bother.
so it joints and rips at the same time.

 

[fshanno]

You could also use a track saw. Only problem is you might be limited on the depth of cut.

Yes you can as you say.

I was straight lining and squaring 36 of 45mm x 30mm x 1800 so the tracksaw is no good....

I've now edited my crappy sketchup.

You mean you are ending up with 45x30x1800 after milling right?  How big are the rough cut boards?

 

[Nigel]

The rough sawn boards are 38x 200 x 5400 so I crosscut to 1800 then rip and  square up like I described to 34 x 48 ish and then thickness to finish at 45x 30.

 

[Nigel]

If you think about it it's a jointer on it's side with a saw blade instead of cutters.

actually lol i was once in a pro woodshop where they had a pre-historical jointer powered by leather belts and stuff that doubled as a rip saw.
so you have a regular jointer, but on the jointer arbor left side there is also a sawblade mounted! so while they were jointing they were bending over this unprotected spinning sawblade  [scared] literally inches away from their chest. the table could be raised to cover the blade but they didn't bother.
so it joints and rips at the same time.

Now that's scary!

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Since there are a lot of folk on this board who are new to woodworking, I just gotta say - don't even think about it!  There are many ways the saw blade can bind in this procedure and cause kickback.  Attaching a straight board to run against the fence will solve most of the issues, but if the board is badly cupped (there is an arc when you look at it from the end) the piece can still bind.

Best practice is to flatten the bottom side of a board (doesn't have to be perfect - just so it doesn't wobble when you put it on the table) and have a straight edge to run against the fence before you use a table saw on a board.

You can do this with hand planes, a TS on a rail, a bandsaw, many ways.  If you don't have the tools or the time, get the lumberyard to face joint one side and put a straight edge on each board that needs it.  Money well spent.

End of rant, thanks for listening.

 

[GPowers]

Since there are a lot of folk on this board who are new to woodworking, I just gotta say - don't even think about it!  There are many ways the saw blade can bind in this procedure and cause kickback.  Attaching a straight board to run against the fence will solve most of the issues, but if the board is badly cupped (there is an arc when you look at it from the end) the piece can still bind.

Best practice is to flatten the bottom side of a board (doesn't have to be perfect - just so it doesn't wobble when you put it on the table) and have a straight edge to run against the fence before you use a table saw on a board.

You can do this with hand planes, a TS on a rail, a bandsaw, many ways.  If you don't have the tools or the time, get the lumberyard to face joint one side and put a straight edge on each board that needs it.  Money well spent.

End of rant, thanks for listening.

Great safety tip for all, thanks

 

[Nigel]

Wow, we really have entered the twighlight zone.The drawing is exaggerated!It's a cartoon!

My theoretical piece of timber has been endowed with cups, bows and twists in all directions beyond my wildest dreams.

I am not advocating the use of this method to rectify and reclaim deformed timber!Where's the common sense gone?

Am I to understand that I am the only person here who rips rough sawn timber?

Do other folks carefully plane and square every piece before going near a tablesaw?

I suspect there are other people who rip rough sawn timber without a second thought.

If that is true then they will come instantly to my theoretical piece of wood without all the exaggerations and  probably not realize it.

Nine out of ten rough sawn pieces will have a slight bow at the very least and if you sight down the length you will see a convex on one side and a convex on the opposing side.

Now, which side do you present to the fence?

If you don't think twice then it's pot luck.I used to do this 25 years ago.It  was just construction timber and it needed ripping...

However,If you put the [slightly] concave  side against a long fence you have every chance of ending up with a very straight edge.

If you try it with the [slightly] convex side you won't and it might even bind......it's as simple as that.

It's a valid method and I believe it's as safe as any other tablesaw operation.

If you guys all meticulously flatten and straighten You're timber before ripping it then I take my hat off to you.It must be real pleasure to only ever rip timber that is perfectly flat and square.

If you still believe this concept dangerous and unsafe then I'll quite happily bow to consensus and delete my OP as I feel like I'm peeing against the wind......

 

[ScotF]

I agree with others that this is not necessarily the safest practice, but I get your point.  As long as the two tips of the convex side remain in contact with the fence for the duration of the cut it should work as you have a constant bearing surface.  If not, then the board will move and and best spoil the cut and more likely cause a kick-back or something worse.  I think that the bandsaw, tracksaw or having a jointer is the best option for ripping rough lumber.

Scot

 

[Sam Murdoch]

Since there are a lot of folk on this board who are new to woodworking, I just gotta say - don't even think about it!  There are many ways the saw blade can bind in this procedure and cause kickback.  Attaching a straight board to run against the fence will solve most of the issues, but if the board is badly cupped (there is an arc when you look at it from the end) the piece can still bind.

Best practice is to flatten the bottom side of a board (doesn't have to be perfect - just so it doesn't wobble when you put it on the table) and have a straight edge to run against the fence before you use a table saw on a board.

You can do this with hand planes, a TS on a rail, a bandsaw, many ways.  If you don't have the tools or the time, get the lumberyard to face joint one side and put a straight edge on each board that needs it.  Money well spent.

End of rant, thanks for listening.

Jesse, You are certainly not in the clouds with this post [big grin] Please - to all of you new woodworkers, read this post and know that it is the best way to get the desired result without hurting yourself. Nigel's table saw concept can work but as he wrote – twice – " As I said the longer the fence the better" - read that to mean that the fence needs to be so long that whatever the high spots on the edge that constitute the "straight" of that edge must never leave the safety of full contact with your fence for you to achieve the desired results. You can get close but you can get in trouble too.

As for you Festool TS 55 or TS 75 owners you all know that you can straighten the edged of boards using a guide rail longer than the board you are straightening - either with the saw or your favorite Festool router. Those are better than nothing but still for straightening & flattening boards a jointer is pretty indispensable piece of shop equipment.

 

[Bill Barker]

Often if my piece is longer than my fence have used a long strip of 1/4" anything and a bit of clear packing tape. Rip against the strip and you have a straight edge. Now I have a great Grizzly sliding panel saw. no worries.