Why don't more manufacturers use standard ER type collets?

[smorgasbord]

I think I know the answer is lock-in (having to buy replacement collets from the manufacturer), but still.

My CNC uses what is essentially a Makita router. Went through trying the Muscle Chuck, but it's extension was too much. Having some bit slipping issues now so probably need to replace the collet. Turns out there are companies making "precision" collets for the Makita, but still, it seems that the collet design is lacking, especially compared to standard ER-11 collets. And they make "ER" type collets in various sizes, too.

I also think collet length matters:
• The Makita precision collets are 16mm long. The standard collets for their trim router are even shorter.
• My mid-size Bosch router has collets that are about 25mm long.
• My big old Porter Cable router has collets that are almost 30mm long.

I guess another question is why router reviewers rarely mention anything about the collets? Seems just as important as where the handles are located. And no-one checks these routers for run-out when reviewing. Sigh.

 

[Mini Me]

ER collets were invented in 1972 so early router manufacturers were forced to design their own solution and possibly they have just carried on from there. I have given up using routers in tables preferring a CNC spindle which use ER collets, far better and way more robust and water cooled spindles are not affected by dust. ER collets come in various sizes and can be changed to suit what you need which is also handy when you combine that with a VFD to vary spindle speed.

 

[smorgasbord]

I put a Makita clone router on my CNC, and the ER11 collet system is really great for 8mm and under bits. Made a big difference in usability and bit retention.

Two weeks later, the company had a Black Friday sale on their VFD spindle for the CNC, so I have that on order. It uses ER-16 collets.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Two weeks later, the company had a Black Friday sale on their VFD spindle for the CNC, so I have that on order. It uses ER-16 collets.

You'll love the spindle, they are absolutely the best!

Water or air cooled?

 

[smorgasbord]

Air cooled. Just a 110 volt one. My CNC isn’t big nor exceptionally robust. I’m pretty amazed at how well my trim router handles aluminum already.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Spindles are so much better than trimmers, or larger routers for that matter. You'll love it. 1.5kW or 2.2kW?

 

[smorgasbord]

1.5KW:

65mm VFD Spindle Kit - 110V

This is our long-awaited VFD Spindle Kit for Shapeoko. If you'd like something more powerful and quieter than a standard trim router, this is the way to go. We've engineered this kit to be as plug-and-play as possible.

shop.carbide3d.com

 

[WillAdams]

I suspect it comes down to cost (ER-style collets are more expensive to manufacture with the additional machining), ennui (why change), and concerns about folks never disassembling and cleaning (if the collet isn't captured to the nut).

 

[Cheese]

Very interesting, never knew that a VFD controller will not run on a GFCI circuit. I'm wiring a new garage with both 120 & 240 outlets so this makes me rethink the circuit topology.

Question...the 1.2kW spindle is theoretically capable of drawing 1320 watts and the 2.2kW spindle can draw 2640 watts so why don't they call them 1.3kW and 2.6kW instead?

 

[smorgasbord]

I suspect it comes down to cost (ER-style collets are more expensive to manufacture with the additional machining), ennui (why change), and concerns about folks never disassembling and cleaning (if the collet isn't captured to the nut).

The Porter-Cable, Bosch, and DeWalt routers I own have collets that are captured to the nut. Never saw instructions that I can recall to remove the nut from the collet to clean.

I suspect it's because they want you to buy replacement collets from them. It's why Sony changed the charging plug type with every new phone - to get you to buy chargers from them. Same reason why Apple had the lightning cable.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Question...the 1.2kW spindle is theoretically capable of drawing 1320 watts and the 2.2kW spindle can draw 2640 watts so why don't they call them 1.3kW and 2.6kW instead?

I've put load testers on my machines, and found that CNC spindles don't actually pull anywhere near the rated amount under normal load. They're generally highly efficient.

 

[Mini Me]

Air cooled spindles are quite enough not to need ear protection until the cut starts and you can make a lift with a DRO for very little cost, certainly way cheaper than commercially available lifts. My WC spindle sits directly in the dust extraction path with no issues.

 

[smorgasbord]

I saw a video that explained why low runout is important with small diameter bits, especially in a CNC. Essentially, at even home shop CNC speeds, the runout can dramatically increase the load on the bit since it moves the bit in and out (kind of like a tiny Domino). With small diameter bits, you're looking at load per tooth swing amounts in the 0.001" - 0.002" range, so runout even half that affects the load on the bit. On larger bits it's not an issue. And probably not an issue with these small bits in hand held routers since you modulate your speed manually.

 

[luvmytoolz]

@smorgasbord I see a lot of people stressing over runout on 3ph spindles, which seems silly to me, the worst runout 3ph spindle (that's not from a garbage manufacturer) is still orders of magnitude better than most routers anyway.

Plus when you add the cutters flex/stress under load that can also make a sizable unplanned difference.

 

[Cheese]

Having used a lot of different Bridgeport knee mills over the years to machine ferrous & nonferrous materials, tool runout was always important but not nearly as important as when you're using small diameter tooling. The majority of the end mills I used were all 3/8" diameter or larger and I tried to use all 1/2" diameter cutters. When you go to smaller diameter tooling, the stiffness of the tool is drastically reduced which means any flexing of the tool also contributes to additional tool runout. So using proper feed rates are also critical when using small diameter cutters.

Here's a great video on using small diameter cutters on a CNC.