I don't want to drag the current CXS thread off topic as this is a general thread not specific to any brand. I have 4 x 12V drill/drivers and 2 x 18V drill/drivers and I rarely use the 18V stuff at all in the workshop. The 18V drill/drivers will get used for any metal work projects but for woodworking the 12V does all the drilling driving I need to do in the workshop. So I have got to ask why anyone doing hobby woodworking needs anything stronger than 12V, the only thing I can think of is for forstener bits or similar if a drill press is not available.
12V v's 18V
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Crazyraceguy
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I may be a bit of an exception, because I build much larger projects than what most hobbyist woodworkers ever get involved in. The 18v Makita drill and impact drivers are my main ones.
I use the CXS for smaller hardware, drawer guide screws, hinge screws, pocket screws, etc.
Occasionally I need to drill or drive with a right angle adapter too.
A 12v tool could probably do most of what I need, but I have been using the compact Makita 18 for so long, it's just what I am used too.
I started, many years ago, with the "stick style" 7.2v Makita. They had NiCad batteries....and sucked in comparison to today, but did get rid of the cord. I still had to get out the corded version for bigger jobs though. 9v and 12v came along with that same stick style, before the more modern "Pod style", all still NiCad. I had mostly Craftsman 14.4v at that point, mostly because of economics. I needed several drills/drivers, set up with different bits, at the same time.
When Lithium Ion technology came out, the weight and size dropped considerably, and when you lift/use them hundreds of times a day, it matters.
I got my first 18v Makita as quickly as I could, because they were far superior for most of my needs, but I held onto the others too. The initial offering from Makita was 3Ah only, they later offered 1.5Ah too.
When I discovered the little 10.8v Bosch pocket driver, it became the hardware installation tool. I added the drill chuck version and right angle version as they expanded the platform. This was kind of the beginning of the whole "platform" thing.
When I finally realized that the CXS could replace all of it, with one tool, I sold them to co-workers.
That consolidated me to just 2 battery platforms, 18v Makita and CXS. That was 2016, and that's where I still am to this day.
30 years of battery life story in a couple of paragraphs.
I use the CXS for smaller hardware, drawer guide screws, hinge screws, pocket screws, etc.
Occasionally I need to drill or drive with a right angle adapter too.
A 12v tool could probably do most of what I need, but I have been using the compact Makita 18 for so long, it's just what I am used too.
I started, many years ago, with the "stick style" 7.2v Makita. They had NiCad batteries....and sucked in comparison to today, but did get rid of the cord. I still had to get out the corded version for bigger jobs though. 9v and 12v came along with that same stick style, before the more modern "Pod style", all still NiCad. I had mostly Craftsman 14.4v at that point, mostly because of economics. I needed several drills/drivers, set up with different bits, at the same time.
When Lithium Ion technology came out, the weight and size dropped considerably, and when you lift/use them hundreds of times a day, it matters.
I got my first 18v Makita as quickly as I could, because they were far superior for most of my needs, but I held onto the others too. The initial offering from Makita was 3Ah only, they later offered 1.5Ah too.
When I discovered the little 10.8v Bosch pocket driver, it became the hardware installation tool. I added the drill chuck version and right angle version as they expanded the platform. This was kind of the beginning of the whole "platform" thing.
When I finally realized that the CXS could replace all of it, with one tool, I sold them to co-workers.
That consolidated me to just 2 battery platforms, 18v Makita and CXS. That was 2016, and that's where I still am to this day.
30 years of battery life story in a couple of paragraphs.
Crazyraceguy
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Yeah [member=58818]Mini Me[/member] I actually do have a corded drill, but it's because of the hammer function.
When I had to re-buy everything after the fire, I didn't get the whole Makita kit, which included that bigger 3 speed unit with the hammer.
I got the more normal 2 piece drill and impact driver (the blue ones) and then a second set of the compact (black) brushless. Multiple units are still important to my workflow.
Since I had a DeWalt corded hammer drill before and it was very good to me, I got the same one again.
I don't need it often, but it is great when I do. (Big hole saws)
When I had to re-buy everything after the fire, I didn't get the whole Makita kit, which included that bigger 3 speed unit with the hammer.
I got the more normal 2 piece drill and impact driver (the blue ones) and then a second set of the compact (black) brushless. Multiple units are still important to my workflow.
Since I had a DeWalt corded hammer drill before and it was very good to me, I got the same one again.
I don't need it often, but it is great when I do. (Big hole saws)
Michael Kellough
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I had committed to cordless in the Makita 9.6v Ni-Cad days for the convenience and Makita’s easy availability although I also bought some Hitachi because they made the first 1/4” hex impact driver and they also made a wonderful reciprocating knife that could cut foam core, drywall, and thin plywood. The Makita drill wasn’t very powerful so when I needed to take a drill out of town for an effects job I took my corded Milwaukee 1/2” Magnum drill.
I needed the drill to drive a rig I’d made to rotate a giant Rolodex. Mostly the job was stop-motion animation but one part was live. When I built the rig I only had the hub and not the cards. It held about a thousand cards and I wasn’t sure how much torque would be needed but I was sure the Magnum could turn it.
On set we found out the electric drill couldn’t maintain a steady speed. Maybe there was a problem with the power supply but the bottom line was it wasn’t suitable for the shot. Luckily the local prop had a just bought a cheap no name 12v cordless drill (a red thing with literally no name on it) that had eloctronic speed control. It was powerful enough to spin the Rolodex and the speed was rock steady. After that the Magnum was only used for mixing mud and paint.
I needed the drill to drive a rig I’d made to rotate a giant Rolodex. Mostly the job was stop-motion animation but one part was live. When I built the rig I only had the hub and not the cards. It held about a thousand cards and I wasn’t sure how much torque would be needed but I was sure the Magnum could turn it.
On set we found out the electric drill couldn’t maintain a steady speed. Maybe there was a problem with the power supply but the bottom line was it wasn’t suitable for the shot. Luckily the local prop had a just bought a cheap no name 12v cordless drill (a red thing with literally no name on it) that had eloctronic speed control. It was powerful enough to spin the Rolodex and the speed was rock steady. After that the Magnum was only used for mixing mud and paint.
mino
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Well, 12V versus 18V ... is really 12V versus 20V or even better, the 3-cells-in-series versus 5-cells-in-series question.
The 3-cell (12V) having an advantage in *minimal* pack size at about 250g (180g for cells, 60-70g electronics and the box).
The 5-cell (18V) having an advantage in higher voltage, thus the same-size motor *WITHOUT* up-volting can have a higher torque and the wiring etc. can be also narrower at same power.
The thing is that for drills TODAY, the cells available allow for making a medium-power drill with just a 3-cell 18650 pack.
For other tools ... it is more tricky. *SC Festool sanders, for example. Technically there was absolutely nothing preventing Festool to go with 12V packs for them. One could argue that, ergonomically, they *could* be better by being lighter with a 3-cell pack ..
But, what would be that "benefit" ove a 5-pack at 20V when one would still need a 6-cell (12V) pack to get reasonable runtime anyway ..
It is no coincidence that the tool companies settled on 5-cell LiIon solutions across the board. It is just the sensible middle ground allowing for 5-cell light packs for drills and 15-cell 21700 12Ah packs for the big tools ...
All that said, there is nothing preventing, e.g., Festool, making 18V tools which are light&nimble as well as someone else making 12V 6-cell pack tools which will be quite powerfull. The tech is out there.
Take Makita ... they have a 1.2kg drill (0.9+0.3 pack) out there which takes the LXT 5-cell 2.0 Ah packs. That drill is mechanically identical to their 0.85kg CXT 12V version which clocks at 1.1kg (0.9+0.2 pack). The 20V version is actually better as the 100g on bottom makes it more stable both sitting on its battery and in use. But that is not a universal observation ...
At the end, IMO it is about the "killer" tools. Does one need a tool that *requires* a certain battery platform .. and thus adds other tools on it later or no.
In the past 12/20V was about power as there were no high-current 18650 cells around. These days it is more about capacity/runtime and the platform than raw power.
Points aside, I see folks like Makita moving into a 3-cell 12V "small" line and a 10-cell 40V "big line" eventually. The 12V line will "upgrade" to 3x 21700 cell packs which will cover the "old" 5-cell 20V middle ground and the newer, more efficient, electronics will be able to work out with the 12V limitation as well.
Festool and other smaller/niche makers like Hilti will likely stick with 5/6-cell "universal" small packs at 20V/24V to avoid fragmenting their ranges too much.
The 3-cell (12V) having an advantage in *minimal* pack size at about 250g (180g for cells, 60-70g electronics and the box).
The 5-cell (18V) having an advantage in higher voltage, thus the same-size motor *WITHOUT* up-volting can have a higher torque and the wiring etc. can be also narrower at same power.
The thing is that for drills TODAY, the cells available allow for making a medium-power drill with just a 3-cell 18650 pack.
For other tools ... it is more tricky. *SC Festool sanders, for example. Technically there was absolutely nothing preventing Festool to go with 12V packs for them. One could argue that, ergonomically, they *could* be better by being lighter with a 3-cell pack ..
But, what would be that "benefit" ove a 5-pack at 20V when one would still need a 6-cell (12V) pack to get reasonable runtime anyway ..
It is no coincidence that the tool companies settled on 5-cell LiIon solutions across the board. It is just the sensible middle ground allowing for 5-cell light packs for drills and 15-cell 21700 12Ah packs for the big tools ...
All that said, there is nothing preventing, e.g., Festool, making 18V tools which are light&nimble as well as someone else making 12V 6-cell pack tools which will be quite powerfull. The tech is out there.
Take Makita ... they have a 1.2kg drill (0.9+0.3 pack) out there which takes the LXT 5-cell 2.0 Ah packs. That drill is mechanically identical to their 0.85kg CXT 12V version which clocks at 1.1kg (0.9+0.2 pack). The 20V version is actually better as the 100g on bottom makes it more stable both sitting on its battery and in use. But that is not a universal observation ...
At the end, IMO it is about the "killer" tools. Does one need a tool that *requires* a certain battery platform .. and thus adds other tools on it later or no.
In the past 12/20V was about power as there were no high-current 18650 cells around. These days it is more about capacity/runtime and the platform than raw power.
Points aside, I see folks like Makita moving into a 3-cell 12V "small" line and a 10-cell 40V "big line" eventually. The 12V line will "upgrade" to 3x 21700 cell packs which will cover the "old" 5-cell 20V middle ground and the newer, more efficient, electronics will be able to work out with the 12V limitation as well.
Festool and other smaller/niche makers like Hilti will likely stick with 5/6-cell "universal" small packs at 20V/24V to avoid fragmenting their ranges too much.
With all that technical stuff explained what advantage does an 18v drill/driver have over an 12v in the workshop for a hobbyist. For me just about zero and I wonder what others see if using 18v tools. Today's 12v drill/drivers are generally smaller, lighter etc and do the job and I suspect it is a hangover from days gone by when the choices available simply weren't there.
I wonder if the tool manufacturers have come to the same conclusion and realised that it is now possible to make 12v tools that do the jobs they were not capable of in years gone by and also worked out that the marketing opportunity is not one to be ignored.
I wonder if the tool manufacturers have come to the same conclusion and realised that it is now possible to make 12v tools that do the jobs they were not capable of in years gone by and also worked out that the marketing opportunity is not one to be ignored.
mino
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I will turn it around.Mini Me said:
What advantage does a 12V driver have over a 18/20V one justifying *another* battery platform ?
For the most part, just nada.
What advantage does a 20V driver have over a 10.8/12V one justifying *another* battery platform ?
Again, just nada.
THe thing is, that is the wrong question. Outside specialist tools, like the original CXS, which are striving for the absolute lightest package, there is very little difference between a 12V drill driver with a 3-cell pack and an 20V one with a 5-cell pack. Assuming the same electro-mechanics.
The thing is, the real drivers for people to go to a platform in 2023 are -not- the drills/drivers. Pun intended. Other, more specialist, tools drive the platfrom choice with the drills just tagging along ...
For shop-based professionals, it is easy. They can use the optimal from each and have lighter 12V drills and heavier and stronger 20V angle grinders etc.
For mobile folks, it is all about reducing the battery platform counts. Since adequate drills are available from 12V all the way to 60V, people will choose a drill on a platfrom they require for the other tools. For the most part. Not the other way round.
And asking if 12V or 18/20V for a Tracksaw, which needs 10+ cells for passable performance .. well, I believe the answer is obvious why *most* mobile folks just go all-18/20V while one will see way more of the 12V range in the shops.
My 2c.
mino
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In that case the 12V lines have no (game-changing) advantage and requires additional platform => a pass.
It is still not feasible to make 12V heavy tools as one needs enough capacity anyway meaning the 3-cell packs advantage quickly gets into a disadvantage of huge currents. With 20V platforms it is possible to have all needs covered. From light to heavy use. Even if not always ideally.
A mid-point are multi-voltage platfroms like the Festool 10.8-14.4-18 "big" batteries where one can just have a few bats for the "light" tools and stick to same chargers. But those are rare these days.
What would be cool is if someone came with a 12V/36V "FlexVolt"-style platform. I can see that solving many of the challenges mentioned, but the hobby market would probably not pay for that at this stage ..
It is still not feasible to make 12V heavy tools as one needs enough capacity anyway meaning the 3-cell packs advantage quickly gets into a disadvantage of huge currents. With 20V platforms it is possible to have all needs covered. From light to heavy use. Even if not always ideally.
A mid-point are multi-voltage platfroms like the Festool 10.8-14.4-18 "big" batteries where one can just have a few bats for the "light" tools and stick to same chargers. But those are rare these days.
What would be cool is if someone came with a 12V/36V "FlexVolt"-style platform. I can see that solving many of the challenges mentioned, but the hobby market would probably not pay for that at this stage ..
mino said:
Most brands have a new line of batteries with 21700 cells. Those have a sustained discharge of 40A while still having a capacity of 4 Ah. The formfactor where the cells go into the grip that 'most' 12V batteries have doesn't allow for 21700's.
mino said:
From lots of brands a lot of tools are only available on 12V. I have 12V and 18V Bosch. For some tools you can choose, like drills, drivers, jigsaws, etc. But small lights, lasers, wall scanners; it's 12V.
mino said:
If you don't need the power... there is no beating the 12V machines for ergonomics.
mino said:
The amount of incompatible batteries that Festool makes... that is rare. Sander-specific battery, lights with build-in battery, CXS-only 12V battery, regular 12V battery, regular 18V battery... :
mino said:
Where 12V = 11.1 and 36V = 33.3?
Otherwise there isn't even an integer multiple of the lower cell count that would make up the higher voltage.
If you design tools for that, it means you can't do the 'batteries in the grip' design like Bosch, Milwauke, etc. So that just results in bulkier tools.
Hawkeye0001
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Mini Me said:
My first Festool drill was the T12 and I was mighty impressed with that. Two years later I got a T18. While there was a jump in power output it honestly wasn't that much more and I could've well stayed with the 12V forever without ever having issues. But the 12 and 15V were a dying breed and I had several other 18V tools by then, so I decided to sell it (for the same price I paid for the 2nd hand T18 - love the way that stuff keeps its value!).
The little CXS as a 12V machine however did make a real difference simply by virtue of its compact size (not by voltage or power)
woodferret
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Mini Me said:
Well, hobby WWs are also homeowners and there a plenty M18* yard tools that litter that end of the spectrum. M12 tools for instance are very 'tradesy', ironically. Likely due to them being more suited to being tightly packed in a EDC bag.
So mino's case of people buying the must have tool still applies to hobbyists and for a lot of them starting out, minimal number of battery platform seems to be the norm. It's only the longer experienced hobbyists that might branch out to more platforms because they wanted lighter tools, or maybe another mfg had that 'one tool' they desired, or they've just become tool collectors.
* using Milwaukee but Makita's offering are similar.
squall_line
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woodferret said:
I bought a Makita Drill/Impact combo to get the bonus battery set, which then allowed me to get bare tool versions of the blower and weed whipper.
The leaf blower eats batteries if you don't feather the trigger, but the weed whipper is quite handy, and I've always hated how finicky and loud gas trimmers are, so I actually trim my yard now.
derekcohen
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Smaller and lighter is always better. A drill just needs to have enough power for your needs. A 12V Panasonic was the business 25 years ago. Then I got a 15.4v Panasonic, and hated the extra weight. Continued with the 12v. Several years ago I added a 10.8v Festool C12 (10.8v in Oz and 12v in the USA - same drill). The Festool is lighter than the Panasonic but not as powerful. I imagine a lighter 18v CSX would be a great drill to replace all. I am unlikely to do so, however, as mine do all I need them to do in a workshop.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Regards from Perth
Derek
