1ph 220v to 3ph 440v - Got answers?

[JonathanJung]

Looking to get a 16" Oliver jointer running again (more on that perhaps in a separate post). It's a 1950s era Oliver 166CD with a 440v 3ph 5hp motor.

Anyone with experience converting 220v to 440v and 1 phase to 3 phase? From what I've been told, I need to step up the 1ph 220v to 1ph 440v with a transformer then convert the 1ph 440v to 3ph 440v with a VFD. I've been speaking to a tech at KB Electronics in Florida.

Can anyone confirm this or suggest known alternatives to this solution?

For a transformer I've seen used 5kva units from $200-1000. A 440v 5hp VFD from KB is about $400.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I can’t speak to the 240V -> 480V conversion, but I’ve been very happy with my Phase Technologies PT010 phase converter. It goes on a 80A breaker, I think it delivers 36A 3PH 240V power, rated for ~10hp.

Depending on how fussy it would be to perform the conversion, have you considered converting the machine to accept a contemporary 7.5hp 3PH 240V motor?

Best wishes on your adventure.

 

[JonathanJung]

I can’t speak to the 240V -> 480V conversion, but I’ve been very happy with my Phase Technologies PT010 phase converter. It goes on a 80A breaker, I think it delivers 36A 3PH 240V power, rated for ~10hp.

Depending on how fussy it would be to perform the conversion, have you considered converting the machine to accept a contemporary 7.5hp 3PH 240V motor?

Best wishes on your adventure.

The machine has a direct drive motor, I'm not sure how easy it would be to find one that couples with the head.

[attachimg=1]

 

[JonathanJung]

I can’t speak to the 240V -> 480V conversion, but I’ve been very happy with my Phase Technologies PT010 phase converter. It goes on a 80A breaker, I think it delivers 36A 3PH 240V power, rated for ~10hp.

Depending on how fussy it would be to perform the conversion, have you considered converting the machine to accept a contemporary 7.5hp 3PH 240V motor?

Best wishes on your adventure.

Tom, what is your RPC powering?

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I can’t speak to the 240V -> 480V conversion, but I’ve been very happy with my Phase Technologies PT010 phase converter. It goes on a 80A breaker, I think it delivers 36A 3PH 240V power, rated for ~10hp.

Depending on how fussy it would be to perform the conversion, have you considered converting the machine to accept a contemporary 7.5hp 3PH 240V motor?

Best wishes on your adventure.

Tom, what is your RPC powering?

It’s actually a solid-state phase converter (no moving parts). Right now it’s running a 7.5hp 3PH Felder KF700S saw/shaper, or a 7.5hp 3PH 16” wide belt sander. I have a Felder RL160 on order that I spec’d with a 3PH motor that will run on the phase converter as well.

It’s a decent setup for my needs, but is certainly not a cure-all. I know there are a lot of users here with much greater electrical experience than I do who will be able to advise you on the 240V->480V issue. Yeah the direct drive might cause you some headaches, but should make for some great learning opportunities.

 

[DeformedTree]

not sure how a lower voltage 3PH motor changes things, 240V 3ph would be weird.  Also I would think the transformer and Phase convertor verses just Phase Convertor has more to do with what specific models someone has.  I have a hard time believing no one has 240 1Ph to 480 3Ph in one box.  But such a setup might be more that the transformer is fairly cheap, and cuts down on some wiring, convertor and transformer as separate parts may be cheaper than one that is integral.

Do you intend to acquire more machines like this?  I would think that would be a big driver. If you do, then you might want to put in a setup powering a 480V 3PH panel in your shop, so then when you buy the next machine, you have the setup ready to go. Then size your 1Ph to 3Ph setup based on this.  You wouldn't want to buy a Phase Convertor for this, and then a year from now have to buy a second.

 

[rvieceli]

[member=3891]WarnerConstCo.[/member]

Hey Darcy got any suggestions for Jonathan?  I think he’s in Seattle

Ron

 

[Mini Me]

I have sold a lot of VFD's for dust extraction so I have some expertise in this area. I think the first thing to do is ascertain if the motor can be run as a 3 phase 240V motor. You can do this by either looking at the data plate or looking in the connection box on the motor. If it can be then a simple VFD can be used and that has a few advantages such as low current start up and speed control if needed. It is also certainly kinder on the equipment with a slow ramp speed on start up. Not being in the US I would hesitate to recommend a brand as the ones we sell are sourced from China.

If the motor is not dual voltage there are some alternatives. A repairer can change the internal wiring to convert it to 240V or as a last resort it could be re-wound but I doubt that would need to be done.

 

[JonathanJung]

I have sold a lot of VFD's for dust extraction so I have some expertise in this area. I think the first thing to do is ascertain if the motor can be run as a 3 phase 240V motor. You can do this by either looking at the data plate or looking in the connection box on the motor. If it can be then a simple VFD can be used and that has a few advantages such as low current start up and speed control if needed. It is also certainly kinder on the equipment with a slow ramp speed on start up. Not being in the US I would hesitate to recommend a brand as the ones we sell are sourced from China.

If the motor is not dual voltage there are some alternatives. A repairer can change the internal wiring to convert it to 240V or as a last resort it could be re-wound but I doubt that would need to be done.

I agree, setting up the motor 240v is the best and simplest. Calling around, the price ranges from $800-1500 for a rewind, and $500 for a rebuild and "re-leading", which is what you say about getting into the motor and reconfiguring it to 240v. These solutions avoid a transformer and give me long-term simplicity. Less to go wrong, and I want the motor rebuilt anyway.

 

[JonathanJung]

not sure how a lower voltage 3PH motor changes things, 240V 3ph would be weird.  Also I would think the transformer and Phase convertor verses just Phase Convertor has more to do with what specific models someone has.  I have a hard time believing no one has 240 1Ph to 480 3Ph in one box.  But such a setup might be more that the transformer is fairly cheap, and cuts down on some wiring, convertor and transformer as separate parts may be cheaper than one that is integral.

Do you intend to acquire more machines like this?  I would think that would be a big driver. If you do, then you might want to put in a setup powering a 480V 3PH panel in your shop, so then when you buy the next machine, you have the setup ready to go. Then size your 1Ph to 3Ph setup based on this.  You wouldn't want to buy a Phase Convertor for this, and then a year from now have to buy a second.

220v 3ph is very common.

Yes, I have a 3ph Walker Turner drill press and am currently on a ferry to get a SCMI 3ph wide belt sander. That's good advice, to setup a 3ph panel large enough to run 2 of the biggest of my machines (I'm a 1-2 man shop.)

 

[DeformedTree]

not sure how a lower voltage 3PH motor changes things, 240V 3ph would be weird.  Also I would think the transformer and Phase convertor verses just Phase Convertor has more to do with what specific models someone has.  I have a hard time believing no one has 240 1Ph to 480 3Ph in one box.  But such a setup might be more that the transformer is fairly cheap, and cuts down on some wiring, convertor and transformer as separate parts may be cheaper than one that is integral.

Do you intend to acquire more machines like this?  I would think that would be a big driver. If you do, then you might want to put in a setup powering a 480V 3PH panel in your shop, so then when you buy the next machine, you have the setup ready to go. Then size your 1Ph to 3Ph setup based on this.  You wouldn't want to buy a Phase Convertor for this, and then a year from now have to buy a second.

220v 3ph is very common.

Yes, I have a 3ph Walker Turner drill press and am currently on a ferry to get a SCMI 3ph wide belt sander. That's good advice, to setup a 3ph panel large enough to run 2 of the biggest of my machines (I'm a 1-2 man shop.)

Forgot about the wild leg stuff.  Not a path I would go for. I would want to stick with the modern standards.  So 208Y/120 or 480Y/277 the 2 US specs (your machine being the later). Or even 400Y/230 to go with a more global spec.  One thing I have read about is that on some machines if you have a 400Y/230 50Hz machine, you may want to run it on 480Y/277 60hz to make up for the frequency differences.  Link That has some discussion on the subject.

You can also look at multi-tap transformers. Once you have one of the 3 phase specs, they others are just just a matter of a transformer. So you might want to spend money to get a good 1Ph to 3Ph convertor, set up a panel (208Y or 480Y would be easiest), and then you can either have a transformer sized to the need at each machine you buy over time, or set up a panel for each spec.

But again, I would look at the big picture, not try to hack a single machine into your setup.  If you are just going to run one of these types of machines at a time, or maybe 2 at most if you have an employee, then you don't need to get a high amp setup. You can always set up a panel and just have a fairly low amp/power feed to it since you know you won't be running them all at the same time. But a bit of up-front investment in a panel setup with some growth means you can go all "warner construction mode" and hook machines up with just a bit of wire.

1-2k will buy you a big 3 phase transformer, and mean your not mucking up the machine.

 

[Mini Me]

A VFD will take care of any speed/hz issues that may arise or be needed and give soft start and braking on top of that if it is needed. I run my Clearvue at 70hz every day and late at night wind it down so no one gets disturbed by the noise. This is one reason I always advise customers to never buy a single phase dust extractor as VFD + DE = versatility. 

 

[JonathanJung]

Just picked up a wide belt sander, so I decided to streamline all 3ph machines from a phase converter and a 3ph breaker panel. A 30hp phase American Rotary is on the way which will run the 15hp WBS and the other smaller machines. This way each machine doesn't need it's own converter, and I can easily expand with new tools or even link another phase converter to double the output. I still may want the VFD on the jointer for braking purposes and one on the drill press for speed control.

From what I'm hearing that sounds like a good plan, along with getting the jointer motor rewound for 220v.

 

[DeformedTree]

Sounds like a plan.

So are you going to build a 240V 3PH setup then?

 

[Mini Me]

Just picked up a wide belt sander, so I decided to streamline all 3ph machines from a phase converter and a 3ph breaker panel. A 30hp phase American Rotary is on the way which will run the 15hp WBS and the other smaller machines. This way each machine doesn't need it's own converter, and I can easily expand with new tools or even link another phase converter to double the output. I still may want the VFD on the jointer for braking purposes and one on the drill press for speed control.

From what I'm hearing that sounds like a good plan, along with getting the jointer motor rewound for 220v.

That  presents its own set of issues, if each machine is independent then a single problem does not mean every machine goes down like one single system would do if that system went down.

 

[JonathanJung]

Just picked up a wide belt sander, so I decided to streamline all 3ph machines from a phase converter and a 3ph breaker panel. A 30hp phase American Rotary is on the way which will run the 15hp WBS and the other smaller machines. This way each machine doesn't need it's own converter, and I can easily expand with new tools or even link another phase converter to double the output. I still may want the VFD on the jointer for braking purposes and one on the drill press for speed control.

From what I'm hearing that sounds like a good plan, along with getting the jointer motor rewound for 220v.

That  presents its own set of issues, if each machine is independent then a single problem does not mean every machine goes down like one single system would do if that system went down.

I agree, and thought of that. It would be about like a dust collector. When mine caught fire, I lost about a week of work. For the phase converter, since some machines can't be run off a VFD (such as if they already have a built-in VFD), I'll need to run them off the phase converter. I'm thinking the WBS, a lathe, CNC, etc. And maybe for the others that can be run off a VFD, I will. But for now I think I'll just setup a few 3ph outlets throughout the shop to get started.

 

[Mini Me]

I am involved in a complex dust extraction installation at the moment and we deliberately went for multiple machines to avoid total loss of extraction in case of any problems to avoid losing extraction in the whole facility.

 

[JonathanJung]

Update:

A 30hp American Rotary phase converter arrived. Model ADX-30. What. A. Beast. Largest motor in my shop now, around 330lbs. The pictures on their website do not in any way prepare you for the size.

Currently acquiring small stuff - breakers, panel, etc..

Trying to talk to a couple of electricians about necessary wire runs, etc.