8020 Exploring

[cgmojoco]

Wanted to put together an updated thread specific to 8020 extrusions and fasteners.

Have seen some of you here on the FOG building some wonderful things and I'm in the exploratory stage looking at what I might build.

Initial ideas floating are custom shop tables, rolling cabinets, drawers/shelves, power tool fences.

Here are some questions/thoughts/concerns to kick things off.

1 - Comparing to hardwood for something such as a table.  Using 4040; 4040-UL or 4080 as a benchmark (or whichever profile you have experience with), does this stuff hold up to say, a beefy hard maple stock that might be used in an equivalent build if one were to use wood?  I'm hoping all agree that even the 4040-UL profile would be equivalent or better in strength and rigidity to whatever hard maple stock might have been used in it's place (i.e. I'm hoping the 4040-UL is as strong/rigid/reliable as 4X4 hard maple).
It is my understanding that both aluminum and wood can bend and have movement with temperature and humidity changes.  How do they compare?  I'm guessing the extrusions have an advantage here, correct me if I am wrong with your experiences.

2 -  # of slots in a single side of the profile.  Are two (or more) slots always needed?  Can one build a table with single slot extrusions without loosing any functionality? (Including loss of any functionality using any of the Festool clamps and loss of stability at the joints).  I'm just wondering why most of the projects on the FOG using 8020 extrusions use tall two slot extrusion models as opposed to single.

3 - Using with Ply.  Is there a particular extrusion that is easier to work with ply panels? (I'm hoping to use 3/4" minimum thickness ply for my projects).
How do you mount ply panels to the extrusions?  For a table top made of say, MDF laminated...would there be any problems/special considerations installing that on an 8020 profile base?

4 -  Cost/benefit analysis.  Do you feel your projects with extrusions have a better cost/benefit ratio over their wood frame counterparts?

I'm sure more questions will come to mind but these are my first thoughts in exploring.

Any help is appreciated in advance!

 

[Alan m]

i have never used it but would love to.
i like the idea of being able to build it use it and take it apart and reuse it for some thing else.

its kind of like lego. just use your imagination.
if i was buying any i would get slots on all sides because it can be used more after that project  or added too etc down the line,
i think you can get a plastic slip that slides down into the slot to stop it filling with crap.

some of the extrusions have a slot that the ply can slot into  and float

 

[cgmojoco]

Also, does anyone have the Incra Table Saw Fence? If so, can you confirm whether the rails are an 8020 profile (if it does match an 8020 profile which one?)

I've reached out to Incra, however haven't received a response.

 

[cgmojoco]

i have never used it but would love to.
i like the idea of being able to build it use it and take it apart and reuse it for some thing else.

its kind of like lego. just use your imagination.
if i was buying any i would get slots on all sides because it can be used more after that project  or added too etc down the line,
i think you can get a plastic slip that slides down into the slot to stop it filling with crap.

some of the extrusions have a slot that the ply can slot into  and float

Thanks for the information on the slot filling; that is handy to know.

For more clarity, I'm wondering if one might know the best profile to use for say...a hypothetical base for a phenolic laminated thick ply table top 4'Wx8'Lx3'H (this might be my first project for the extrusion profiles).

It would have to be strong, but I'd like to keep the weight down as much as possible.  It would also have to accept Festool clamps and other tools/accessories as best possible (I understand that there are some extrusion profiles that if used would require a little filing of Festool clamps if you want to use Festool Clamps which is fine in my book as they would still work in my MFT tables).

I have an MFT/3 and a Kapex/MFT (which I never use my Kapex on, it has become a small assembly table) which I plan on continuing to use in the field.

At the same time, I'm needing a single large table in the shop which has more functions specific to a shop (rigidity for hand planing, downdraft portion, single table size for large assemblies, single smooth top for large in table routing needs, larger dust collection hookup etc).  I have my eyes on building Martin Henn's Multi-Function table with modifications specific to my needs including possibly building it with 8020 profile base.  I'm waiting on the plans from Holzwerken to arrive before I can fully contemplate.

Thanks again in advance for any feedback you guys have.

Kind thoughts -
Christopher

 

[rmwarren]

Christopher,

Some of your questions may be answered by my last post in this thread: http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/an-8020-work-bench/msg235059/#msg235059. As to some of your other questions:

Rigidity - If I were building a table with an unsupported span of 8', I would definitely use the 1530 or 4080 profile. The 1515 or 4040 might be rigid enough but I would expect a bit of flex. You could safely stand in the center of an 8' 4080 extrusion and not expect much deflection. If you have an intermediate leg at 4' then the 15/40 profiles should be fine.

Slots/plywood - both series have slots widths of +/- .32", slightly over 5/16 or 8mm. As Alan mentioned you could float a panel in the slots but most likely you will need to rabbet the edges and, depending on the fastening method for the 8020 corners, possibly need to notch the panel corners.

Mounting ply top - it you want the top to sit proud of the extrusion, like the MFT top, I would suggest you mount some blocks of hardwood to an inside t-slot and fasten the plywood top to them. You can also use some 8020 angled corner brackets but there is no benefit and they are costly.

Incra TS Fence - The Incra extrusions you mentioned are not the same as the 8020 profiles.

Cost - the 1530 or 4080 ULS profiles will cost you about $10/LF, probably a bit more than similarly sized hard maple starting from 8/4 and milling it down.

I am a big fan of 8020 for a lot of uses, not least because I can always take stuff apart and re-purpose it as needed.  There is a link on the other post that will take you to their downloadable catalog, lots more info available there.

Good luck.

RMW

 

[Julian Tracy]

It's fun stuff to be sure - I have quite a bit of it plus a lot of hardware from buying a lab table off CL and disassembling it.

But looking at the retail/Ebay pricing of it, gotta believe the table you speak of would reach $1000 real quick by the time you add it all up.

It has it's uses, like instead of an MFT, or a router table or CNC tables, but for a large utility table, it'd be overkill both in build and budget when compared to standard lumber options.

JT

 

[greg mann]

Christopher,

Some of your questions may be answered by my last post in this thread: http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/an-8020-work-bench/msg235059/#msg235059. As to some of your other questions:

Rigidity - If I were building a table with an unsupported span of 8', I would definitely use the 1530 or 4080 profile. The 1515 or 4040 might be rigid enough but I would expect a bit of flex. You could safely stand in the center of an 8' 4080 extrusion and not expect much deflection. If you have an intermediate leg at 4' then the 15/40 profiles should be fine.

Slots/plywood - both series have slots widths of +/- .32", slightly over 5/16 or 8mm. As Alan mentioned you could float a panel in the slots but most likely you will need to rabbet the edges and, depending on the fastening method for the 8020 corners, possibly need to notch the panel corners.

Mounting ply top - it you want the top to sit proud of the extrusion, like the MFT top, I would suggest you mount some blocks of hardwood to an inside t-slot and fasten the plywood top to them. You can also use some 8020 angled corner brackets but there is no benefit and they are costly.

Incra TS Fence - The Incra extrusions you mentioned are not the same as the 8020 profiles.

Cost - the 1530 or 4080 ULS profiles will cost you about $10/LF, probably a bit more than similarly sized hard maple starting from 8/4 and milling it down.

I am a big fan of 8020 for a lot of uses, not least because I can always take stuff apart and re-purpose it as needed.  There is a link on the other post that will take you to their downloadable catalog, lots more info available there.

Good luck.

RMW

I agree on most everything here but you could find value in the angled corner gussets if you want to hand plane. We have multiple benches made from 8020 (1515 and 1530 lite) at my workplace and they take a beating never seen in awoodworker's shop.

 

[Qwas]

1 - Comparing to hardwood for something such as a table.  Using 4040; 4040-UL or 4080 as a benchmark (or whichever profile you have experience with), does this stuff hold up to say, a beefy hard maple stock that might be used in an equivalent build if one were to use wood?  I'm hoping all agree that even the 4040-UL profile would be equivalent or better in strength and rigidity to whatever hard maple stock might have been used in it's place (i.e. I'm hoping the 4040-UL is as strong/rigid/reliable as 4X4 hard maple).
It is my understanding that both aluminum and wood can bend and have movement with temperature and humidity changes.  How do they compare?  I'm guessing the extrusions have an advantage here, correct me if I am wrong with your experiences.

I'm not a structural engineer but I would think these aluminum extrusions are comparable in strength to maple wood. Many professional shops and schools use these extrusions to make tables and benches so  I'm sure their strength is very good.

The temperature movement of wood or aluminum is not a concern. Aluminum has a temperature coefficient of .000 012 (yes, that's 12 millionths) inches per inch of material per degree Fahrenheit  while oak and pine wood is about .000 003 inch. Of course wood varies much more by humidity and is not that easy to pinpoint to a number. So a 100 degree temperature rise will add .001" to a 1 inch block of aluminum and an 8 foot long piece will be just over 3/32 of an inch longer.

2 -  # of slots in a single side of the profile.  Are two (or more) slots always needed?  Can one build a table with single slot extrusions without loosing any functionality? (Including loss of any functionality using any of the Festool clamps and loss of stability at the joints).  I'm just wondering why most of the projects on the FOG using 8020 extrusions use tall two slot extrusion models as opposed to single.

2 slots can be handy but it is not needed. The reason you normally see 2 slots is because the builder went for extra strength (and rigidity) and used a thicker extrusion. It stands to reason that an 80/20 Inc 4040 extrusion (1.57 inches square) will bend twice as much as an 4080 extrusion (1.57 x 3.15 inches). Also, the 4080 will weigh twice as much. The actual slots are the same in these 2 extrusions so there is no issue with loss of clamp use. As the builder of the bench, you need to decide how much weight vs deflection you are willing to live with.

3 - Using with Ply.  Is there a particular extrusion that is easier to work with ply panels? (I'm hoping to use 3/4" minimum thickness ply for my projects).
How do you mount ply panels to the extrusions?  For a table top made of say, MDF laminated...would there be any problems/special considerations installing that on an 8020 profile base?

There are many answers for that question. You can mill the plywood width down to fit in the slot (and lose much of the plywood's strength) or you can use angle brackets that bolt to the slots and the plywood could fit on top of the brackets. I used a smaller series extrusion to act as the angle bracket since I had plenty of it sitting around. You could also mount the plywood right on top of extrusion frame. 80/20 Inc also makes some hinges that could be used if you have some wild ideas.

4 -  Cost/benefit analysis.  Do you feel your projects with extrusions have a better cost/benefit ratio over their wood frame counterparts?

I don't think that is a fair question. There are many fine wood frame benches out there, the Roubo is a fine example. There are router bits that could add the T-slots if one wanted them. The aluminum extrusions will cost more money than wood.  I found the extrusions easier to work with because I already have many of the tools needed to work with it, the T-slots are already there, and I would consider the T-slots to be stronger. The real question is which one would you be most comfortable to use afterwards. What good is a bench with a good cost/benefit ratio if you don't use it?

It would have to be strong, but I'd like to keep the weight down as much as possible.  It would also have to accept Festool clamps and other tools/accessories as best possible... At the same time, I'm needing a single large table in the shop which has more functions specific to a shop (rigidity for hand planing, downdraft portion, single table size for large assemblies, single smooth top for large in table routing needs, larger dust collection hookup etc).

For use with the clamps requires the 15 or 40 series of extrusions. If weight is an issue (why if it is in a shop?) then go with the 40 Lite series. Keep in mind that rigidity and weight (and costs) are proportional, you can't expect rigidity from a toothpick as well as you can't expect a hand planing bench to weigh 5 pounds. These are the trade-offs every designer must play with and decide on. If you're serious about hand planing, I would use nothing less than 40-4080 Lite and would consider dropping the Lite for their normal (heavier and beefier) 4080.

I hope my answer helps but it's hard to answer many of these questions for someone else, it depends on your own needs and likes. The 8020 catalog is over 1,000 pages and it's hard to say that one specific extrusion is correct for you. Your best bet is to start buying some extrusions on eBay and start playing. That's the best way to decide which ones will fit your needs.

 

[Sean KS]

I looked at 80/20 to make a sliding table saw attachment with their linear bearings. After emailing them the got me in contact with a local distributor. We had a sit down at a coffee shop within a week and figured out 80/20 wasn't the right choice and turned me onto another linear bearing system. The guy knew his equipment and 80/20 was helpful in getting me the contact. Shoot them an email (I used my .edu address which helps a lot) and see if you can't get the same royal treatment. The biggest benefit I see to this stuff is speed of assembly. It's jointed planed and t slotted. You can buy maple for the same price, yes, but what's your time worth. The other major factor is their bracketing, if you go the 80/20 route stop thinking like a woodworker (I can make a corner bracket!) and go with the flow of the 80/20 system. If we're festool people we should love systematic products. I'm building a bench with maple aprons that I cut dados in to accept inca t tracks. It's about the priciest solution out there, and believe me it took a lot to not go 80/20, but my deciding factor was looks not function (why have silver ttracks when all your other ones are gold?). Get a hold of their paper catalog too, that electronic one is hard to scan through if you don't know exactly what you're looking for, I know I usually don't until I've seen it. To sum up the questions posted: ease of assembly and time saving makes 80/20 a good choice for shop equipment over wood. Jointed planed sanded preassembled joints and prefinished. Slots question: assuming this table will accept custom jigs, I like the ability to mount my jigs at different heights relative to the top. I've found I clamp work pieces to my upper and lower t tracks quite often, especially for hand tooling and router work on end grain where you're dealing lots of unclamped material length. 3 plywoods: 80/20 has special brackets just for ply woods to make cabinets with their system. If you have a construction problem using common materials, chances are 80/20 has already built the solution, 3/4 MDF is no exception. 4 cost benefit: what's your time worth? Is this your life time bench or might your needs change in 5 years. If they might, the extrusions can very easily adapt with you.

 

[Svar]

1 - Comparing to hardwood for something such as a table. Using 4040; 4040-UL or 4080 as a benchmark (or whichever profile you have experience with), does this stuff hold up to say, a beefy hard maple stock that might be used in an equivalent build if one were to use wood? I'm hoping all agree that even the 4040-UL profile would be equivalent or better in strength and rigidity to whatever hard maple stock might have been used in it's place (i.e. I'm hoping the 4040-UL is as strong/rigid/reliable as 4X4 hard maple).
It is my understanding that both aluminum and wood can bend and have movement with temperature and humidity changes. How do they compare? I'm guessing the extrusions have an advantage here, correct me if I am wrong with your experiences.

Answer
As far as elastic (reversible) bending is concerned hard maple solid beam equivalents to 80/20 extrusions are:
Extrusion 4040  =  55x55 mm maple
Extrusion 4040-UL  =  50x50 mm maple
Extrusion 4080  =  54x108 mm maple
These will have the same amount of deflection at the same load and beam span (modulus of elasticity of maple is 12000 N/mm^2).
For example:
500N load (~51kg) applied to the middle of 1 m long 4040 extrusion will cause 1.1 mm deflection. Same load will cause 1.1 mm deflection in solid 1000x55x55 mm maple beam. On the other hand 1000x40x40 mm maple beam (same dimensions as the extrusion) under the same load will deflect 4.1 mm.

80/20 catalogue lists moments of inertia for all their extrusions.

Humidity related movement in wood is a concern if you want to use your table for referencing or alignment as you would with MFT. For aluminum frame humidity is not an issue and thermal expansion is negligible.

 

[Wooden Skye]

I just ordered some 8020 to make a fence for my miter saw station, I need to make 1 cut, is using my miter saw with 40T blade alright or do I need to get an aluminum blade.  Again it is 1 cut, taking 8' piece and making 5' and 3' piece.

Thanks

 

[polarsea1]

I cut aluminum fairly often with my miter saw. Just clamp it firmly, slow down a little and use good eye protection.

 

[Orders@ruok.com]

I installed a third party non-ferrous cutting blade ($55.00 - Amazon.com) and it cut through a 15 series 1 by 2" extrusution like butter. On my old miter saw I would use my stock blade to do this - but it dulled the blade in a hurry and did not leave as smooth a cut.