A few nuanced questions, Festool and TSO parallel guides on an STM 1800

[johnsayen]

I'm faced with indecision on the Festool vs the TSO parallel guides - here is the situation, maybe you can help me steer toward the right direction.

I currently have the Seneca guide set and they're "fine" but I'm interested in upgrading them as I recently bought into the LR32 system and am building more cabinets and seek fine repeatability.

I am drawn to the Festool set after watching Sedge and Brent working them on youtube, the one thing I like the most is that the guiderail can still rest on the material/sheetgood during narrow rips. It looks like calibration is fairly straightforward once you watch the video and get the hang of it, and they appear fairly well balanced if you keep the narrow rip extensions attached at all times.

After reading people ooh and ahh about the TSO set on here in several threads, I started trying to watch some videos to see what the excitement is all about. I see that TSO has tried several times to simplify their offerings in the space and I think after reading and re-reading I mostly understand what I'd need. I already have the GRS-16. What I'm drawn to with the TSO is longer t-tracks and it's hard to ignore the boasting on this forum. The main reason I'm on the fence at this point is that in order to do narrow rips you have to rotate the track 180 degrees and float it off of the material, sending the guides below the track and supporting the track with scraps/offcuts. That seems really clunky to me and since I work off the STM 180 for this type of work it feels like I'd have to start using a sacrificial foam board resting on top of the STM. Also, it's a little unclear what exactly I'd want for a complete set? The TPG-30-50 plus a GRS-16 PE to compliment the GRC-16 I have? And what's this calibration rod memory all about?

I've rambled enough and appreciate your input. Thank you.

 

[ScotF]

Getting the complete TPG set and GRS 16 PE guide will give you the most flexibility. They also make some t-attachments to use if you do not want to invest in a different guide. I like the flexibility both guides offers. TSO makes great stuff.

 

[clark_fork]

Best follow the set-up steps for narrow cuts in the  TSO Video on the website demonstrating the procedure for narrow cuts (less than 10 inches)

Video: TPG Parallel Guide Calibration and Use

The Festool parallel guide employs an attachment that requires  simple fastening  with a quick calibration for blade width. Whereas the TSO system requires  a jury rigged floating rail with a rod extension calibrated to a standard width of 10 inches and then an addition for the width of the narrow cut width. Since I have both systems, I use Festool for narrow widths and TSO for widths greater than ten inches. If I did a do-over, I would have just kept the Festool. I did not realize the TSO had such an awkward means of cutting narrow widths.

The major drawback of the Festool parallel guide is that selection is either Imperial or Metric whereas TSO has both as it should in this day and age.

 

[johnsayen]

The Festool parallel guide employs an attachment that requires  simple fastening  with a quick calibration for blade width. Whereas the TSO system requires  a jury rigged floating rail with a rod extension calibrated to a standard width of 10 inches and then an addition for the width of the narrow cut width. Since I have both systems, I use Festool for narrow widths and TSO for widths greater than ten inches. If I did a do-over, I would have just kept the Festool. I did not realize the TSO had such an awkward means of cutting narrow widths.

The major drawback of the Festool parallel guide is that selection is either Imperial or Metric whereas TSO has both as it should in this day and age.

Thanks, that is what it looked like to me on the video too (the rod extension and calibration for narrow rips). Do you use your TSO parallel guides for crosscuts at all? I have the MFT which I use for crosscuts and the TPG-16 for wider than the MFT can handle but one major advantage it seems for the TSO parallel guides with crosscuts would be just setting the width and cutting, rather than cutting to the line. I realize the festool parallel guides can do the same but only up to 25" in panel height

 

[simonh]

Here's my process of using the STM and TSO stuff.  This combination has resulted in the best cabinets I have ever built.  The parts have been spot on.

1) Rip clean edge on sheet
2) Use TSO square to cross-cut to length
3) Use TSO parallel guides to rip parts
4) Use TSO square to cut lengths for the ends and shelves

The great thing with the TSO parallel guides and an extra set of stops if that you can set up one track and stops on the TSO square for cross-cutting shelves and ends, then have another set with the rail adapters for the rip cutting.  It becomes really advantageous if you are making a lot of cabinets.

If I'm wanting a good cut on the backside of melamine (e.g. for shelves) when using the STM I put a sacrificial piece of MDF underneath the cut or try gang cut a few parts clamped together to avoid chip out.

If I'm needing to cut narrower than the rails then I usually cut a piece to a multiple of the width (incl kerf) I want and then just rip them down into individual lengths of the required rip on the table saw. 

My MFT is redundant, to be honest. Who wants to lug the work from the STM to the MFT.  Also, with the TSO PE square, you can use it from the same reference edge for cross-cuts, whereas with an MFT your always lifting and flipping the wood if you want to try use the same reference edge (and then that messes up the reference face which matters with melamine).

 

[johnsayen]

Here's my process of using the STM and TSO stuff.  This combination has resulted in the best cabinets I have ever built.  The parts have been spot on.

1) Rip clean edge on sheet
2) Use TSO square to cross-cut to length
3) Use TSO parallel guides to rip parts
4) Use TSO square to cut lengths for the ends and shelves

Thank you, when you're doing step 2 are you using the parallel guides for the crosscut as well? Or just the square and cutting to the line?

 

[simonh]

Here's my process of using the STM and TSO stuff.  This combination has resulted in the best cabinets I have ever built.  The parts have been spot on.

1) Rip clean edge on sheet
2) Use TSO square to cross-cut to length
3) Use TSO parallel guides to rip parts
4) Use TSO square to cut lengths for the ends and shelves

Thank you, when you're doing step 2 are you using the parallel guides for the crosscut as well? Or just the square and cutting to the line?

I use the square to cross-cut one end. Then you can either measure, mark and use the square to cut the other edge, or stick one of the TSO rulers on the square and use that to get repeatable lengths (e.g. if you are wanting to cut a lot of 900mm sides for cabinets).

You can always rip all the widths, then do all cross-cuts to length... I just found that as I was building full height cabinets and step 2 meant all the sides were the same length (2200mm) it was easier to cut the length before batching out parts.

 

[johnsayen]

Here's my process of using the STM and TSO stuff.  This combination has resulted in the best cabinets I have ever built.  The parts have been spot on.

1) Rip clean edge on sheet
2) Use TSO square to cross-cut to length
3) Use TSO parallel guides to rip parts
4) Use TSO square to cut lengths for the ends and shelves

Thank you, when you're doing step 2 are you using the parallel guides for the crosscut as well? Or just the square and cutting to the line?

I use the square to cross-cut one end. Then you can either measure, mark and use the square to cut the other edge, or stick one of the TSO rulers on the square and use that to get repeatable lengths (e.g. if you are wanting to cut a lot of 900mm sides for cabinets).

You can always rip all the widths, then do all cross-cuts to length... I just found that as I was building full height cabinets and step 2 meant all the sides were the same length (2200mm) it was easier to cut the length before batching out parts.

Thank you, what are those little squares with blue tethers on your tracks?

 

[simonh]

If needing lots of parts say 2000mm long you can join the TSO rails together and set a stop, or in my case, I just make a simple story stick bu cutting a piece of wood to run from the end of the panel to the back edge of the rail with the square attached, push it up an make the cross cut.  As you get up and running batching out cabinets you start to optimise the processes for repeatability. 

Here's a picture of about a week and a half of cabinet making with the Mafell, TSO stuff and Festool STM-1800. I use the Lamello Zeta for joining and the Festool Conturo for edgebanding.

The black squares are some vacuum clamping pads I made for the VacSys as I hate messing with clamps underneath as there always seems something in the way! I made a few extra for sale last year but only have a couple of sets left.

 

[DynaGlide]

I just wanted to comment on the nice work you did [member=66875]simonh[/member] .

I've achieved similar results with the TSO PGS for ripping and crosscutting.

 

[manuc]

[member=66875]simonh[/member] I sent you a message about the Vacuum Clamping Pads.

 

[Dr. P. Venkman]

I just wanted to comment on the nice work you did [member=66875]simonh[/member] .

Agree - that wall looks terrific.

As to the TSO guides, I'm pretty new to them, and they're terrific. 

I haven't bothered with narrow rips yet - every time it has come up, I've just decided the table saw was simpler.  I keep meaning to sit down and try to see if there is a way to come up with an outrigger of sorts that measures the offcut (from over the top of the rail), then easily pivots/swings/slides out of the way once the rail is in place.  If it's simple enough to be worth it, that would allow the rail to sit on the material instead of having to find both the space and the support for the rail off the sheet. (I'm sure none of that makes sense - it does in my head).

There are just a couple of things I need to get better at with the TSO guides:

• I have to get more confident/competent at setting the lengths on the two guides independently.  I'm constantly worried that I don't have them set exactly the same and that I'm going to cut out of square.  I'm sure experience will solve this.
• I get some wobble in the TSO rails when moving the guide rail around (meaning when I set it on the material, the TSO rails aren't at 90 degrees to the track saw rail).  Again, I assume I'll get better at it with further use.

 

[ScotF]

Beautiful work! Thanks for posting pics of it - love your set up too. What do you use the vacuum pods for? Alignment of the rail?

 

[johnsayen]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone - I'm not sure which way I'll go but I think at this point I'm leaning toward the festool set, and I'll storyboard the longer crosscuts to ensure the scrap fits between the LR32 guides before batching them with the stop on the MFT.

 

[Coen]

Also, it's a little unclear what exactly I'd want for a complete set? The TPG-30-50 plus a GRS-16 PE to compliment the GRC-16 I have?

You either need GRS-16 (PE) or the TPG Adapter to connect the tracks to the rail. With the catch that you cannot use two GRS-16's; one must be the -PE.

But for most of 2021, the TPG sets are sold out... Only the 30-50 set was available for a while. Have not seen the 30 set available. I have email notifications on both.

 

[sancho57]

I use the STM and the TSO GRS with their PGs. Honestly I was having difficulty getting square cuts using the TSO GRS and PGS.

So I checked out Erics Popular shop and he demostrates how to break plywood accurately.

I found it helpful Im using his process and been successful.

I have a undercounter oven cabinet to build for a friend so I will use johnsayens advice about cross cutting the ply to length then to width. In this case it might be even more accurate.

Question: Once the stops are calibrated to say my 2700 rail w the 30" PGs do I have to recalibrate them when changing rails and length of PGs?

Oh heres Erics video

 

[Dr. P. Venkman]

I've never fully understood the use of the PG's with the GRS, and I have a question for those that have used them together (either on one or both ends).

Couldn't that just create more problems? 

The point of the PG's is to create a cut line parallel to the straight reference edge (via the flip stops).  If you're also referencing the GRS against another edge, I would think you would have to have that already perfectly square, or you throw your cut out of parallel.

It seems to me that you're either cutting for parallel or you're cutting for square.  You can't do both together unless you're already square (in which case, what's the point of marrying the PG and the GRS?). 

I suppose the answer is to rip a clean edge, then square it up one or both ends, then get to work with the PG/GRS combo, but that seems like more steps than is intended.  Also, the GRS's are terrific, but I've never cared for the idea of using them with a long rail.

I fully acknowledge that I'm likely just misunderstanding something.

 

[Coen]

You need some way to attach rail and PG together, using the GRS for that is just one way.

 

[tekaddictnyc]

I've never fully understood the use of the PG's with the GRS, and I have a question for those that have used them together (either on one or both ends).

Couldn't that just create more problems? 

The point of the PG's is to create a cut line parallel to the straight reference edge (via the flip stops).  If you're also referencing the GRS against another edge, I would think you would have to have that already perfectly square, or you throw your cut out of parallel.

It seems to me that you're either cutting for parallel or you're cutting for square.  You can't do both together unless you're already square (in which case, what's the point of marrying the PG and the GRS?). 

I suppose the answer is to rip a clean edge, then square it up one or both ends, then get to work with the PG/GRS combo, but that seems like more steps than is intended.  Also, the GRS's are terrific, but I've never cared for the idea of using them with a long rail.

I fully acknowledge that I'm likely just misunderstanding something.
[/quote

When I use the TSO PG with GRS, I rip a 5mm edge to start.  Then reference that edge with the TSO PG flip stops to the parallel dimension I want.  For that parallel rip cut, the GRS is not touching the edge of the plywood.  I leave a small gap.  Only the flip stops touch the fresh cut edge.  After I have 2 parallel edges on the panel, then I use the GRS against the fresh edge to begin cross cutting. 

 

[Dr. P. Venkman]

You need some way to attach rail and PG together, using the GRS for that is just one way.

That makes sense to me if you're not flushing the GRS up against the side of the material - just using it to clip the PG's onto the guide rail.

But I can't quite wrap my brain around the idea that you would use the GRS to position the guide rail to be square to one edge of the sheet while trying to cut parallel to another edge.  Those two things are in conflict, unless you're already square.

TSO advertises the ability to "square and parallel in a single cut," and I don't understand how that's possible.

There's a pretty good chance that I'm just a dummy and there's something I'm missing, but to me, square to edge A and parallel to edge B is only possible if A & B are already square to each other.