A little advice for a new guy

[jplemons]

Hello all,

I'm hoping the vast amount of experienced users here can help inform me better so that I might make the proper buying decision.

A little background: I have little to no experience with woodworking. However, for Christmas I received a Kreg jig and was excited to learn how to use it. I quickly built a workbench and then a coffee table and also put together three "floating" type shelves for my living room. Overall, not bad. The plus side -- I learned a heck of a lot doing things on my own. I used inexpensive materials for the most part, so mistakes weren't too costly. And I learned that I enjoyed the process. It allows me to get lost in my work, which I need as a break sometimes.

However, I also learned that I am woefully deficient in regards to quality tools, let alone skills. I have a cheap Craftsman miter saw that sits on a cheap Craftsman stand. I have an ancient Black and Deck circular saw and a weak corded drill. These tools do OK for what I was originally doing -- making substrates and back frames for my art pieces, which is cheaper than buying gesso boards or birch boards from art stores.

But now I want the ability to do more. I have no room for a table saw. In fact, my "shop" consists of the workbench I made and a couple of makeshift tables outside under my covered back porch. So naturally, I'm attracted to the track saw as an alternative. And I started researching. Wow. Festool seems to be the top, albeit rather expensive. But, I'm tired of buying cheap tools only to replace them. I just don't know if Festool is right for my needs. I'm a sucker for gadgets, though. And Festool seems full of useful, expensive gadgets that actually work.

I've also contemplated the EZ systems. I don't want to start a war, though.

My main needs are being able to cut a variety of materials for use in my artwork, such as 1/4" birch, aluminum, Dibond, plexiglass, etc. Pretty much anything I can think can be used as a base or substrate for the art I do. So, it seems a track saw is perfect. But bloody expensive. So I looked at others online, including Dewalt, Makita and the new one from Triton. I'm still confused. It seems the Dewalt is good but its manual states that it's for wood only, so that's out, if that's true. And then there's the accessories, which no other manufacturer seems to have as many as Festool.

However, since I found I like this woodworking thing, I'd like the ability to make smallish things from good wood, such as boxes, bookshelves, tables, cabinets for my garage, etc. I've also looked into Incra for a router set up and making fancy joinery, which really seems cool and something I can actually do with practice. Yes, I have expensive tastes.

Sorry for the ramble. I'm just hoping you guys can give some honest opinions to a new, self-taught hobby woodworker.

I know this is a Festool-centric board, so I'm expecting a lot of positives for the Festool system. However, I've also seen a lot of honesty from members here and am hoping I'll get some solid advice. What would you all recommend to get me started?

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

I need more info...do you work indoors or outdoors? If inside, is your shop large or small? Do you mostly build with wood boards or plywood?  Other than the chop saw, what tools have you been using to cut with?

 

[jplemons]

I set up outside, but am hoping to move into my two-car garage once I get it all organized -- last room in the house to do after a move. However, I'll have to share the garage with a gym area set up for jiu-jitsu and kickboxing, so keeping it clean will be a necessity.

I currently use my miter saw for cutting the 1x2s I use and an old Black and Decker circular saw for cutting plywood. I don't own a truck, so I usually pick up 24x48, or 48x48 sheets of material.

Thanks!

 

[jacko9]

Hello and Welcome,

My first thought is that you might want to go to a local Woodcraft Supply store and look over the books on Woodworking.  The one that comes to mind is one published by the Taunton Press; "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking".  This book is older than the release of newer type tools like the Domino Jointer but is does discuss fundamental woodworking joinery.

Create a list of tools and machinery and then prioritize it according to your budget and shop space.  I personally got into woodworking that way over 35 years ago and over the past 10 years I'm replacing a lot of tooling with upgraded tools and machinery.

I think that the number one priority for the variety of materials that you want to work with is to get a good dust collection system.  Festool's system approach to matching tools to their Dust Extractors is spot on and will justify the extra costs in itself.  I have found the Festool product line and customer support to be Excellent.

Good luck,

Jack

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Welcome to the FOG! Here's a VERY broad overview of the track saw options:

EZ: I've used this system. For rough carpentry it's great, tracks are nearly indestructible, uses standard circular saws. Falls short when used for finer work, mostly due to the design of standard circular saws not being intended for use on tracks (long story), lack for variable speed, etc... Cut cabinet grade plywood, plastics, etc..... IS possible, but there is a learning curve, and you'll want a saw with variable speed (Hilti WSC 267, if you can find one!).

"55mm-class", plunge cutting track saws. This would include the Festool TS-55, Makita SP6000, and Mafell MT-55cc, among others. given that it sounds like you're planning on mostly processing panels with the exception of occasional cross cuts, this is probably a good match for you. Each saw has it's merits and cons. In general, they're all going to have variable speed and use the same 160mm/20mm blades. All ship in a Systainer. All are compatible with the Festool or Makita tracks, the Mafell also works with the Mafell F-tracks.

Festool TS-55: Great quality saw. Riving knife is nice if you intend on ripping natural wood products (2x's, 1x's, etc...). The older TS-55 was underpowered, not sure if Festool upped the watts on the new machine. No scoring function. Cannot cut through 2x material at 45 bevel on track.

Makita SP6000: Another great saw. Lack a riving knife, but that shouldn't matter if you're mostly working on sheet goods. Has a scoring function, which is nice for laminates and finished plywood. More power than TS-55.

Mafell MT-55cc: Top of the line track saw, with a price tag to match. More power than TS-55. Scoring function. Can cut 2x material at 45 bevel on track.

The larger TS-75 is probably overkill for your needs.

Another system to consider is the Mafell KSS saws. I just got a KSS 300, and it's kind of like a MultiMaster: You built for years without it, but once you have it you wonder how lived without it. Mafell has several saws in the KSS line, KSS 300 with a 4.75" blade, the KSS 400 that takes the same blade as the TS-55, and the KSS 80 with a 9"+ blade.



I hope this helps to get you started!

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

You would be a good candidate for considering the Festool TS55. You will want to plan on how to safely break down those sheets. There's many ideas on other FOG threads. I would also consider a CT 26 and one or two sanders. Festool sanders have excellent dust collection. There are also many threads discussing FOG members' preferences for different tasks. Good luck.

 

[Gnovice17]

I found myself in a similar situation 6-8 months ago.  I have always wanted to pursue woodworking as a hobby but was frustrated on two fronts--- cheap tools that did not integrate on the same platform and not enough practical experience or a mentor to help me learn.  I too started with the Kreg pocket hole jig and the Kreg shelf hole jig and an old table saw.  I was able to make some cabinets for my garage and some basic bookshelves.

I went to several woodcraft stores several times and picked the brains of different salespeople.  I searched the Internet and read reviews, I watched hundreds of you tube videos and looked at manufacturers web sites.  As a result, my first purchase was a rotex sander and dust collector package(I could cut panels on my table saw and lumber with a crosscut sled that I found necessary to make).  After wrestling panels on my table saw a few times, I purchased a TS 75 saw and mft.  Clearly my best purchase.  These two together have made every project easier and each project is cut more accurately.  I have recently used them as a joiner and have found the cut edges will glue up seamlessly.  I have now added the 1400 series router which with the guiderail attachments make dados, rabbets etc much easier.  The dust collection will help keep the area clean too!

You may find other needs than mine or other tools may fill your needs.  What I appreciate about the Festool line is that a rank amateur can use them safely and accurately while producing amazingly high quality results.  It makes me want to be in the shop as much as possible. 

 

[jplemons]

Thanks for the input so far. I wish I lived in an area that had a Festool dealership or any woodworking store other than the big boxes, but I don't.

How about the MFT? Is it worth the expense? I see some who have made a similar table with the 80/20 stuff.

 

[semenza]

I know this is a Festool-centric board, so I'm expecting a lot of positives for the Festool system. However, I've also seen a lot of honesty from members here and am hoping I'll get some solid advice. What would you all recommend to get me started?

Hi,
   
    Welcome to the forum!  [smile]

    This last statement is a real plus with FOG.  You can count on some good and realistic advice.

    The fact that you cut a wide variety of materials means that the variable speed on the TS55 will be of real benefit to you.

Seth

 

[RKA]

Being a relative newbie myself, my suggestion is to plan out some of those garage/utility projects like the cabinets, get the tools you need and put them to use right away on those projects.  You have 30 days to decide whether the investment was worth it (careful, that doesn't apply to accessories purchased in addition to the tool - an oddity which can become a bit problematic when the accessory is required for the project you have in store).  

What I've found is I initially struggled with the high price, especially when there are alternatives.  To make matters more difficult, in many cases the local store doesn't stock the item or doesn't have a demo out that you can actually use (or it's not practical to bring a 4x8 sheet into the store and begin your project! ), so it's hard to drop the money on good faith that it's festool.  But after you've actually used it, it becomes a bit easier see what separates them from the others and to justify the expense.  I won't say I haven't been disappointed, but if it was ever enough to bother me, it goes straight back.

BTW, for my own part, I just order the tools online now.  The local dealers don't always have every tool in stock, they aren't always open outside of business hours, they don't always have the consumables or accessories I need to go with the tool and they aren't always nearby.  For me, it's proven to be far easier/cheaper to order online.  Worse case, I have to pay shipping to send the item back.   

 

[Birdhunter]

I'm a 25 year woodworker and a 2 year convert to Festool. I've replaced almost all my "starter" tools  with Festool. I have a generous budget for my tools and have opted for Festool. I also have a limited space for my shop and I put every large tool on a mobile base. I'm worried about the effects of sawdust so have invested in extremely efficient dust collection (i.e. Festool).

What I've learned is that each Festool product is engineered to be part of an integrated system. For instance, the TS55 goes with their track system and their vac system and the MFT. You can use the same track system for their routers and their jigsaws. Dust collection is a strong feature of their systems and many of their products don't function well without a good strong vac. So, when you are looking at the cost of a Festool product, be sure to include a vac in your calculations.

I've got two MFTs linked together and it is an amazingly good work bench except there is no vise. I had to build an extension for a big heavy vise and that added stability to the mFTs.. I would not keep the MFT outside. The work surface might not do well with moisture.

Although I understand you can cut softer metals with the TS55 and the right blade, be sure to think about the problem of sparks mixing with sawdust.

The instructions that come with most Festool products are nearly useless. Look on Youtube for Halfinchshy videos. They are excellent.

I am paying a premium price for the Festool products and I feel I am getting my money's worth.

 

[PeterK]

My recommendations from a hobby home shop usage viewpoint. If you need tools for portable professional usage, much of what I wrote still applies but the pros will recommend different models at times.

While any drill will work, the star to me in Festool's lineup is the little CXS. Very small, powerful, great hand fit. No you won't drill 1" holes or larger easily and won't handle drilling concrete but for home and shop usage on any wood or similar materials will work great. Well worth the price. I own several other drills, some Festool and the CSX gets 95% to the usage. For larger drills, the T15 is ideal size and power or maybe the T18 but a lot of money! I have the T12 and T15. Very handy with the extra drill chucks for angles and tight quarters usage. Many lower cost drills on the market for normal usage so kind of a luxury. Get the CSX if you can at some time.

Sanders, I have many Festool models. If I only had one it would easily be the ETS 150/3 with the optional hard pad to go along with the supplied soft pad. With course paper it can really eat up wood and with fine paper is a great finish sander. There is the ETS150/5 that has a more aggressive orbit so gives up a little for fine finish. Many here use that model while I prefer the ETS 150/3. The Festool paper works very well and is competitive with other brands and better than most. The Rotex works well but is a handful to control. Mine has not seen daylight in 2 years. The little Rotex 90 can be extremely handy but not useful on large flat surfaces that the 6" sanders like the ETS work well for.

Of course you have to have a dust extractor. All the Festool vacuums have the identicle motor so same suction. If space is tight the Midi is nice. If you have some room, the CT26 is the sweet spot for capacity. A vacuum is critical to use with many of the tools from Festool. Yes you can use a ShopVac or other lower cost unit as the hoses will connect to several Festool tools or you will need an adapter to hook to the sanders. The advantage of the Festool units are many. Variable speed suction is important with sanders as high suction makes the sanders want to stick in stead of float across the wood. The Festool units have excellent filtration and I believe they are all now HEPA rated meaning they filter out the tiniest stuff that can cause lung damage. Definitely the larger CT series are HEPA. Many useful options like the boom arm are available. Pricey but once you have it you will wonder how you lived without it.

The TS55 is great for normal woodworking with plywood and 1 1/2" max dimensional lumber. If you really need the extra cutting depth the TS75 will work better. I have the TS55 and it has done everything I need. You will need extra blades as the supplied blade is great but not good for ripping. The TS55 saw comes with a 55" rail. Recommend you add the 75" rail and the connectors to rip plywood lengthwise.

Jigsaws, if you need one get the Festool PS300 if you need true vertical cuts in thicker wood or the best model from Bosch as they make a great saw also. The jigsaw I use most is my battery powered Makita. Compact, light, uses same Bosch and Festool blades. Extremely handy for rough cutting long lumber down to size to make it easier to handle in my tiny shop. Bought some lumber the other day for a project and had to haul it in my pickup. The wood was only available in 12-14 foot lengths. Was fast and easy with a course blade to cut it down in the parking lot to be able to haul it.

Miter saw, the Kapex is extremely nice and extremely expensive. I just could never justify the price for my usage. I have the tiny Makita 7 1/2" slider that works great! Very compact, accurate and light. I got a 12" Dewalt chop saw to pair with it for cutting structural lumber when needed.

Routers, the Festool OF1400 is the sweet spot as it can use 1/2" and 1/4" bits along with the 8mm European shank bits. If that is too pricey, the Dewalt 2 HP router is a gem. If you don't need to use large bits, the small Festool OF1010 is awesome. I use that one almost all the time as it fits my hand well and is so easy to manipulate.

Yes you need at least one MFT/3 unit. If I had the space I would have 2 more of the MFT/3 Basic models. So very handy for clamping, cutting etc. I rarely use my big cabinet table saw now - mainly just for thick ripping. Yes you can make your own MFT type bench but you really need the full MFT/3 package for accurate cuts on plywood and panels. Once set up and calibrated it makes accurate cuts so easy. I waited years to get one as it seemed like a luxury item. Looking back it is the very first thing I should have purchased.

A Domino will need to come into your arsenal at some point. Your Kreg will handle some of the tasks but you will find hidden joinery like the Domino offers needed for furniture. Lots of dollars but great tool.

So a basic start kit would be the MFT/3, TS55, CT26 and ETS150/3 to get you rolling. Add the CXS drill and OF1400 router. Yes the money will hurt up front. After you will forget the price and enjoy the tools. If you ever want to sell to upgrade or whatever reason you will find excellent resale value if you take good care of your tools. I have routinely been able together 80% or more back when I upgraded to newer models.

I have purchased almost all my Festool stuff from Bob Marino who hangs out here. Great service and support, free shipping, fast delivery. There are other excellent dealers who post here as well like Tom Bellemare. Like you, I have no local dealer. I have been dealing with Bob for at least 10 years now. Think he has a retirement cabin with my name as the donor on it!
Hope this helps.
Pete

 

[waltwood]

You were clear about your experience and usage of tools so I will tell you what I think. They are worth the money but it is very much money. If I did not do woodworking for a living I would not own them. I used other power tools for 38 years and thought most of them were great. i think I have owned most every make of tool sold in the US except for the cheapos and Makita has been the best next to Festool. You can really build everything with tools other than Festool and improve your skills as you indicated. Another thing about Festool is the accessories. There are a hundred of them and I seem to need or want most of them. You can spend $500 on accessories for the shop vac- yes you read that correctly. I did not know this when I started buying Festool and may not have gotten into them if I knew I was going to spend so much after the initial high cost of the tool. After saying that, I am hanging out on the Festool site, planning my next 5 purchases and enjoying using them everyday.
 Also I made my own saw guides out of good quality 1/2" ply of many different lengths and have made thousands of cuts in all kinds of materials. The drawbacks to mine were no dust collection, I could not make bevel cuts without dedicating a guide just for the that, and I did not have the zero clearance cut. Now that I have all of that I rarely use my homemade guides.

 

[jplemons]

Thanks again, all. Any drawbacks or problems with the track saw other than cost?

 

[waltwood]

No drawbacks with the TS 55 except the dust collection hose hangs up on the end of the rail but they make a boom arm to hold it up and you could rig your own easily.

 

[Kev]

Welcome from Oz [smile]

My thoughts ...

Festool offers quality, precision and efficiency ... the systems approach and DC integration keeps the workplace clean and well organised. Sure, this comes at a premium price - but life is short and in most cases the more you spend on something, the more you enjoy it.

The way people justify and/or limit their spending often amuses me - not being critical, but even some of the comments in this thread make me smile [big grin]

In Oz we haven't fully (d)evolved to the big box and UPS model, so there's still a good chance of having specialty suppliers if you're not living in a remote area. I have a small light commercial suburb ten minutes from home where I can put my hands on all but the high end big workshop machinery (I'd need to drive an hour or so for something like a Felder showroom). When you see all of the Festool gear set up and displayed (in Oz we get a much wider range than NA) you just "get it". No other tool manufacturer addresses the domain like Festool ... Sure, there's Bosch, Dewalt, Makita, etc that all make a bigger range of tools, but they all make point solutions for a "function" - Festool delivers a process with an outcome and that's the difference.

 

[Paul G]

I haven't read all the responses so my apologies if this is redundant.

Since you're concerned about cleanliness get a dust extractor with your saw, I was skeptical at first but if the bank account allows just do it. Also you may want to look at a Carvex, it will certainly expand your variety of cutting beyond the track saw and works with the vac, at least for 90 degree cuts. If you need a sander then give a serious look at the RO90, incredibly versatile and is greatly enhanced by the dust extractor. It's all a lot more cost than big box store varieties but the tools are in a different class. Also on the high end are Mafell track saws and jig saw, haven't used them personally but lots of good reviews. Only one dealer in the US though. You'll also probably find a Fein multimaster to be quite useful in general.

If budgets don't allow then there certainly other options out there that get work done, only you can make the value judgement for your situation. Enjoy the journey.

 

[packratpop]

[popcorn] [popcorn].....Ahhh the first Festool....decisions, decisions,,,,,One day you will refer to it as your gateway tool. The one that started the addiction.
I'd suggest the TS55 and a CT if you can swing it...but seriously you can jury rig a regular vac to get started. It is all downhill after that.
The TS55 can give you excellent cut results in various materials primarily because of the zero clearance.
Enjoy the ride.

 

[jacko9]

OK, let me be contrary for a moment.  You state that you have no room for a table saw but you can set up the space for a track saw to cut full sheets of plywood.

If you want to be a furniture/cabinetmaker a table saw is the most important tool that you can own.  If you choose to be a carpenter/sheet good woodworker then a track saw will get you through if you can purchase straight edging material (which is almost impossible).

Chose what you aspire to be, then buy accordingly.

Jack

 

[jplemons]

So a track saw isn't good for furniture? Maybe I should rethink the Eureka stuff? Now im confused again, lol.