A table saw that won't cut skin...and it's not SawStop
- Thread starter ChuckM
- Start date
Here's another one:https://www.altendorf.com/en/company/news/press/altendorfs-asa-safety-assistant.html
wpz
wpz
An optical approach...wpz said:
Looking at the problems of optical detection for autonomous driving... I think I prefer the Felder system
youtube
as their Theremin based detection system is perfectly stupidly simple (the two S from KISS, see this Theremin DIY how-to for the amount of parts required) and relies on physics for the detection (the universe does the calculations anyway, no need for NIH syndrom) so it can not be distracted by your limb being visually hidden through whatever means.
wpz said:
Good to know another finger-saving system is being developed. The more the better in my view as healthy competition drives performance.
Edit: I wonder how the ASA technology compares to this proximity sensing technologyhttp://www.whirlwindtool.com/2012/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=64 which has been around in development stage for many years.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2018
- Messages
- 337
SawStops patents are expiring really soon, so I’m expecting to see plenty of investment from other brands.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
According to Wiki (so I don't know how correct it's):
"The SawStop patents begin to expire in August 2021, with filed extensions this could extend until April 2024 for the early patents. Given that there are about 100 patents, patent protection for this product line may continue for some years."
The patent expiry dates must have been taken into account before TTS Tooltechnic Systems sealed the purchase deal.
"The SawStop patents begin to expire in August 2021, with filed extensions this could extend until April 2024 for the early patents. Given that there are about 100 patents, patent protection for this product line may continue for some years."
The patent expiry dates must have been taken into account before TTS Tooltechnic Systems sealed the purchase deal.
DeformedTree
Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2018
- Messages
- 1,397
There will only be so many core patents to the basic design that matter. Once the patent that basically says something like "sense detection that moves blade out of way". expires, it will basically be game on for anyone else. How sawstop does it won't matter much to others, it's the basic concept of sensing flesh and moving a blade out that stops others from bringing similar systems.
Festool would have seen a lot of value in the name, as it is similar to Band-Aid, Q-tip, etc. Plus gives them even a short amount of time to have the market without competition. Others have their systems ready, they know when the patents that matter to them expire.
They might try to get ahead by making a hard pitch to sell the cartridges to others, make them a standard consumable.
Festool would have seen a lot of value in the name, as it is similar to Band-Aid, Q-tip, etc. Plus gives them even a short amount of time to have the market without competition. Others have their systems ready, they know when the patents that matter to them expire.
They might try to get ahead by making a hard pitch to sell the cartridges to others, make them a standard consumable.
TwelvebyTwenty
Member
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2020
- Messages
- 107
I think when the patents expire SawStop will be on a steep decline, unless they design new mechanism. You can bet your bottom dollar that all the other manufacturers will have taken the luxury of time, and will have come up with all manner of better systems that don't FUBAR the blade, and the safety mechanism won't require any consumable.
They'll also achieve an economy of scales with the sheer number of saws they sell as mainstream brands, compared with niche like Festool, that the price will be only slightly higher than the prices for their current offerings.
They'll also achieve an economy of scales with the sheer number of saws they sell as mainstream brands, compared with niche like Festool, that the price will be only slightly higher than the prices for their current offerings.
I, too, expect once the critical patents expired (when?), other saw manufacturers will join the finger-saving field which should be good news to any woodworker (other than those who insist on using their saws with no blade guards or with no riving knives).
As I see it, there'll be two groups of finger-saving saws: One group will be like SawStop - top quality saws and top customer service; Another group: Mediocre saws competing mainly based on prices. The main differences will be in the cabinet saw market.
How much SawStop's prices will go down, of course, will depend on what its competing saws will be priced and their quality. Regardless, competition will mean more choices for every woodworker. This should be similar to what we're seeing in the auto sector: numerous brands, models, price ranges and choices. Toyota or Lexus, or Honda or Acura? Once the patents are gone, we'll have more choices! [thumbs up]
One more thing: As a SawStop (PCS and ICS) user for some 15 years with zero activation, I consider the "blade destruction" an incentive for me to be extra careful when using the table saw. The potential financial penalty is heavy for me (mine are WWII blades or the SawStop Titanium blade). The extra vigilance becomes a habit...even when using other machines.
As I see it, there'll be two groups of finger-saving saws: One group will be like SawStop - top quality saws and top customer service; Another group: Mediocre saws competing mainly based on prices. The main differences will be in the cabinet saw market.
How much SawStop's prices will go down, of course, will depend on what its competing saws will be priced and their quality. Regardless, competition will mean more choices for every woodworker. This should be similar to what we're seeing in the auto sector: numerous brands, models, price ranges and choices. Toyota or Lexus, or Honda or Acura? Once the patents are gone, we'll have more choices! [thumbs up]
One more thing: As a SawStop (PCS and ICS) user for some 15 years with zero activation, I consider the "blade destruction" an incentive for me to be extra careful when using the table saw. The potential financial penalty is heavy for me (mine are WWII blades or the SawStop Titanium blade). The extra vigilance becomes a habit...even when using other machines.
"They'll also achieve an economy of scales with the sheer number of saws they sell as mainstream brands, compared with niche like Festool, that the price will be only slightly higher than the prices for their current offerings"
That is not going to happen. Blade stopping technology is not trivial and the extra mass required to keep the saw from going out of alignment when triggered will both add to the cost.
That is not going to happen. Blade stopping technology is not trivial and the extra mass required to keep the saw from going out of alignment when triggered will both add to the cost.
DeformedTree
Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2018
- Messages
- 1,397
Such a system doesn't have to destroy the blade, nor cause a lot of forces. Like the felder shows.
The massive forces come from stopping the blade. You don't need to stop the blade, you need need to move it away from the hand. The Felder shows very well how you can just have it drop the blade down, the mass of the blade spinning doesn't play a part in this. Just drop the assembly and then have damping when you slow this down. What is hard is to make this small.
When others bring out their systems, I doubt any will destroy the blade, other than those who license the saw stop parts. Even without patents, it's just cheaper to buy the parts from Sawstop for those who just want to offer the feature. But this is where SawStop trying to get others on board with using their stuff is important. Get people convinced that SawStop is "standard", and anything else is "wacky" "unproven" etc.
The massive forces come from stopping the blade. You don't need to stop the blade, you need need to move it away from the hand. The Felder shows very well how you can just have it drop the blade down, the mass of the blade spinning doesn't play a part in this. Just drop the assembly and then have damping when you slow this down. What is hard is to make this small.
When others bring out their systems, I doubt any will destroy the blade, other than those who license the saw stop parts. Even without patents, it's just cheaper to buy the parts from Sawstop for those who just want to offer the feature. But this is where SawStop trying to get others on board with using their stuff is important. Get people convinced that SawStop is "standard", and anything else is "wacky" "unproven" etc.
ChuckM said:
SawStops only real competition in the US is Powermatic for cabinet saws. I realize there are sliders, but their price points are significantly higher. No one is going to lower prices. I doubt you will see anyone jump into the cabinet saw market just because of a few patents expiring no matter how significant they are. I also expect all saws to go up in price as there will be costs associated with the enhancement whether licensed or developed in house.
Hi Jim,
The other potential cabinet saw competitor I could think of is Delta (assembled in USA). Depending on what finger-saving technology they ultimately adopt -- if they do decide to enter the market -- and their prices, the exact effects (but WHEN?) on SawStop are as accurate as anyone's guess.
Frankly, a lousy cabinet saw with a top-notch finger-saving technology (no blade destruction and easy reset) remains...a lousy saw to me. I hope one of the manufacturers which (for whatever reason) refused to adopt the SawStop technology some 20 years ago would this time come up with a surprise -- a great cabinet saw with destruction-free safety feature and reduced prices (compared to SawStop's which right now has the monopoly) plus comparable customer service (which isn't as easy as it sounds).
The other potential cabinet saw competitor I could think of is Delta (assembled in USA). Depending on what finger-saving technology they ultimately adopt -- if they do decide to enter the market -- and their prices, the exact effects (but WHEN?) on SawStop are as accurate as anyone's guess.
Frankly, a lousy cabinet saw with a top-notch finger-saving technology (no blade destruction and easy reset) remains...a lousy saw to me. I hope one of the manufacturers which (for whatever reason) refused to adopt the SawStop technology some 20 years ago would this time come up with a surprise -- a great cabinet saw with destruction-free safety feature and reduced prices (compared to SawStop's which right now has the monopoly) plus comparable customer service (which isn't as easy as it sounds).
I would expect Grizzly to be a Sawstop competitor for the cabinet saw.
I think that the technology will take off when it is available in a ~5-600 jobsite saw. Dewalt, Bosch, and plenty of others make those at volume and the Bosch Reaxx (along with Sawstop Job site) prove it is technically possible. I am optimistic that we will eventually have these available once the patents expire, there are now oscillating multi-tools at every price point you could want from Harbor Freight to Festool.
I think that the technology will take off when it is available in a ~5-600 jobsite saw. Dewalt, Bosch, and plenty of others make those at volume and the Bosch Reaxx (along with Sawstop Job site) prove it is technically possible. I am optimistic that we will eventually have these available once the patents expire, there are now oscillating multi-tools at every price point you could want from Harbor Freight to Festool.
AlexThePalex
Member
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2008
- Messages
- 7,808
I realy don't understand why those &%!$#$@&#@! refuse to bring out the Reaxx in Europe. [mad] [mad] [mad]
Alex said:
I heard from a (former) local Reaxx distributor that SawStop had chosen not to go after the Canadian sales (probably because it was small), but if it did, it would probably win in the Canadian court, too. Right now, probably or mostly only Amazon.ca and homedepot.ca (not sold in store) offer them ($2000 (almost same price as the SawStop's jobsite saw) up to $3000 Cdn, depending on where it is sold). The two sites I checked last time had about 50 reviews in total, and that should give us an idea why SawStop might not want to bother.
Would the EU market for the Reaxx if sold there be much bigger? I have no clue, but if it would be, then Bosch might wonder if it was worth fighting another legal battle on the other side of the pond.
AlexThePalex
Member
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2008
- Messages
- 7,808
ChuckM said:
Canada Population: 30 million
Europe Population: 592 million
There might just be a few interested buyers here .....
Legal battle? I was always under the impression SawStop patents are only valid in the USA.
Similar threads
