Accuracy of joined rails

fso

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Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
30
Hello,

I got a question on the accuracy of joined rails. I have two 1400 mm rails, which I join when ripping a full sheet of MDF or plywood. Standard routine is to join the rails, using the aluminum straight edge from the MFT as a check to make sure the rails are aligned. Once setup I cut a reference line along the sheet, followed by a second rip to bring the sheet to my desired with. What I noticed today is that when measuring the distance from the initial cut to the back of the rail fluctuated by 2 mm. The start and end of the combined rail was in the correct position, but the middles was curved about 2 mm further from the edge.

Is this typical of using a combined rail, or am I not correcltly combining the two rails? What sort of accuracy should one achieve?

Regads,

Frank
 
I've never had an issue with accuracy when joining my rails.  I use a four foot level alongside as a straightedge to check.  Granted, I am making 12 feet of rail when I do mine, but I have had great success.

Peter
 
Once I had a similar result when ripping maple, and it turned out that the plank I was ripping had some serious tension in it which was released when I ripped it causing a non-parallel rip. I know your plywood is different, but I would check the material for this one problem, even if it is very unlikely.

Richard.
 
I join my rails all the time to break down 4x8 ply and to rip rough sawn lumber - never had a problem with accuracy.
 
I have joined mine using several methods.  Festool says to place your saw over the joint and tighten the rail-joiner screws.  I have also used a 6' level to ensure a straight connection.  I did a 17' long bar that was dead straight using three rails to make the cut.

I would guess that your wood had some tension in it or the rail may have moved if it was not clamped.  [blink]
 
It is not unheard of to have similar tensions in panel products, melamine faced particle board seems to be the worst for it. It tends to occur most in narrower rips, causing the piece to bow.

Frank, did you check the rails alignment with another straight edge after making the cut?
Do you use two connector bars?

Rob.
 
Rob-GB said:
It is not unheard of to have similar tensions in panel products, melamine faced particle board seems to be the worst for it. It tends to occur most in narrower rips, causing the piece to bow.

Frank, did you check the rails alignment with another straight edge after making the cut?
Do you use two connector bars?

Rob.

Basically what I did was connect the two rails with two connector bars, using the straight edge from the MFT miter gage to check the alignment of the rails. Subsequently I ripped a thin strip of a full sheet of MDF to get a reference edge. When setting up for the second rip parallel to the fresh cut edge I noticed the inaccuracy in the middle. Unfortunately I did not check if the problem was with the alignment of the rails (which might have moved) or the initial cut.

I do use the Rapid clamp to keep the rail in place.

I wonder if it is due to manipulation of the rail as the first edge is cut left to right and the second one right to left meaning I have to rotate the rail by 180 degrees. Next time I'll check rail alignment before and after the cut as well as the cut's themselves to see where I get in trouble.
 
If you have to manipulate the combined rails a lot, you might also check them relative to your first cut once you get them oriented correctly - just in case they were slightly loose.

Tom
 
I've had this problem quite regularly.  I have a feeling that it is operator error in my case...

I finally broke down and purchased the 3000mm rail yesterday as a result.  The amount of time wasted doubting whether or not i had adjusted the joined rails just wasn't worth it.  The 1400's are great for field work since they're easy to transport though.
 
     
      The mft straight edge might be too short?Better with a 2m level or straight edge.
 
I also use a straight edge to verify alignment when I join the rails.  Once, though, I still got a slight curve in a cut when the material wasn't supported well and sagged between the saw horses.  The rails also sagged, and the resulting twist caused a bow in the cut.  Definitely user error, but something to consider.

Steve
 
I usually make a couple extra measurement marks when ripping a full sheet.  Then I can line up the ends and then also check the middle parts to make sure they are correct as well.
 
I have to say that I can't be bothered with extra steps, such as using a straight edge, etc, every time I attach 2 or more rails.  When I purchase new rails, I automatically trim the ends with my Kapex.  As long as the ends are square, and care is taken when attaching the rails, a straight combo rail is a given.

Dan
 
Dan Rush said:
I have to say that I can't be bothered with extra steps, such as using a straight edge, etc, every time I attach 2 or more rails.  When I purchase new rails, I automatically trim the ends with my Kapex.  As long as the ends are square, and care is taken when attaching the rails, a straight combo rail is a given.

Dan

Dan,

I used to be under the impression that when I joined the rails together tightly like that I would get a straight cut.  However, Bob Marino informed me that I should keep a playing cards width of space between the two rails to keep them from "binding" when the rails were joined and possibly creating a bowed cut...

P.S.  How's the cabinet install business in the Mid-west going?  (A cabinet installer myself, just curious.)

Jon
 
Jon,

I'm certainly not looking to contradict my friend Bob, but I don't understand what can bind if the butt edges are tight.  I'm not suggesting a "forced" fit, just a nice snug joint.  I suppose that if the cutting surface were not a flat plane, a little play at the joint COULD be preferable.  But even then, I don't see the joining rods being too flexable. 

Maybe Bob, or someone familiar with his theory can chime in.

In the shop, my cutting table is darn close to a flat plane.  In the field, I mainly pre-cut extended stiles attached to cabinet boxes, then touch up with a small block place.  As long as I'm within a 64th or 32nd, I'm dead nuts.

Regarding our Chicago market; seems to be picking up a bit.  I'm seeing more quote requests coming in.  Bodes well for next year. ( most of my jobs are out 12-18 months).  I've been busy, but I'm a one man army.  Some of my colleagues with multiple crews are still hurting big.

Best, Dan

 
Dan Rush said:
I have to say that I can't be bothered with extra steps, such as using a straight edge, etc, every time I attach 2 or more rails.  When I purchase new rails, I automatically trim the ends with my Kapex.  As long as the ends are square, and care is taken when attaching the rails, a straight combo rail is a given.

Dan

Best idea Ive heard all day! So simple.
 
Dan Rush said:
I have to say that I can't be bothered with extra steps, such as using a straight edge, etc, every time I attach 2 or more rails.  When I purchase new rails, I automatically trim the ends with my Kapex.  As long as the ends are square, and care is taken when attaching the rails, a straight combo rail is a given.

Dan

Good thought!  Just be extra careful about the accuracy of your square cut, since any error will be magnified by the ratio of the rail length to the rail width!
 
Steve Baumgartner said:
Dan Rush said:
I have to say that I can't be bothered with extra steps, such as using a straight edge, etc, every time I attach 2 or more rails.  When I purchase new rails, I automatically trim the ends with my Kapex.  As long as the ends are square, and care is taken when attaching the rails, a straight combo rail is a given.

Dan

Good thought!  Just be extra careful about the accuracy of your square cut, since any error will be magnified by the ratio of the rail length to the rail width!

The cut doesn't need to be square if both ends are cut together end to end as they'll be joined (and the fence is straight). Any error in the angle will be complimentary for that pair of rails but it will surely be a problem if another rail is used.
 
Hi, I have been disappointed with the standard rail jointing system,
I rip down about between 20 and 30 sheets a month, mostly at the beginning of a project and then assemble the parts.

Why can't the rail ends be cut square? There are many reasons for discrepancies in the rail profile as the extrusion dies get worn/distorted due to friction heat etc But the ends not being square, that is just the manufacturer not bothering, which is slack as the rails are not cheap and because they have a festool sticker on them.

I found when just using the two joining rods, even a slight knock makes the rail out of alignment.
For all those that say get a longer rail...why? The whole point of having a system is that it can adapt to the work and be flexible. The festool approach of compact, easily transportable, accurate tools, is why I spend my hard earned cash on festools.

A long rail is impractical for the work i do, it needs to be looked after too much and a lot more trouble to transport.
I came up with a additional support to stiffen the jointed rails in my case two 1400 mm.

This was mark one,

[attachimg=#]

It worked OK but was a lot of fiddling to get the rails bang on straight .
This jig made it a bit easier flipping the rail end for end to cut in the other direction (like a festool version of a  Bat'leth] the screws are small so can't tighten too hard in fear of stripping the heads or threads. This was made using a trend profile (crap  version of festools MFS)
I made the shoes that go into the rail channel out of Aluminium
it was fine to get me out of a spot but the whole setup still wasn't robust and simple as it could be so.....
Mark two

[attachimg=#]

this was made with some Aluminium flat bar and some IKEA connector plates for sliding doors (I fit and custom modify lots and lots of Flatpack )
This time i cut a Festool connector rod  in half instead of making my own shop built one. The steel slides  better and the grub screws are easy to set.
the steel plates had  M6 threads in them so just tapped the aluminum .
To get the rails to be straight I snapped a chalk line on my workbench then clamped the rails in place then double checked with my longest Level then triple checked with a laser line (really needed the rails to be straight )when all was set I drilled, tapped and ground all the parts in place.
The way I get the system to be repeatable is that I number all my rails so the two to be jointed are always the same. (I use two for the 2440 cuts, one 1400 for the 1220 cuts and a 800 rail for any small cross cuts.) Three 1400 rails saves a lot of time.
This system uses 3 rods two as normal one cut in half.

The time consuming thing was to find a stiff, easily repeatable low profile way to make this. I have much thicker profiles ( IKEA and skip diving) but they would have restricted the cutting depth, I have a TS55 so need every mm.
My rails and stiffener all fit in to one (over priced ) rail bag, along with a 1000mm steel rule, it does mean packing carefully, not to rip the bag or bust the zipper. I lightly filed the ends if all my rails to stop any tearing of the bag.

I hope this was of use.
Ill try and post more pics of mark 2 tomorrow.
Sorry if this in the wrong Place on the site
 
FEStastic,

That's a very nice solution! I've never had a problem with the joined rails myself, however it is very rare that I do join them.

This jig made it a bit easier flipping the rail end for end to cut in the other direction (like a festool version of a  Bat'leth)

PMSL at that!!!
 
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