Advice on big purchase

[Iceclimber]

Im going to buy a planer jointer combo machine.

I am considering three brands and five machines in total.

Background, i use lots of figured wood. Think 90%. Will i always, its hard to say. Its also safe to say i will always use lots of figured wood just maybe not 90% but maybe 50%.

I have a 1000 sq ft basement shop. Access is not that of your average basement. I need to get up a 10" threshold and down three 10" stairs no turns. The door is 39" wide so I'm good on that. The machine will also have to moved over a lawn using plywood and a pallet jack.

The plan is to use a engine lift to get the machine onto a platform that will extend the length of the machine both outside and inside the house and door opening. The engine lift will pick the machine up onto the platform and then be moved inside the house to take the machine off the platform once the machine is slid on the platform and into the house. Can you all follow that? It probably makes more sense to me. It will work but it will not be easy. 

Im leaning towards a spiral cutter over Tersa. Problem is im leaning toward Minimax over Hammer. The Hammer machine with spiral cutter cost about the same as the Minimax with a Tersa head. Im considering buying the Minimax as i just like the machine more and upgrading it with a $1100-$1500 Byrd head.

The other concern is 12" machine or 16". Most say for furniture making a 12" planer is more than enough as small boards are mostly edge jointed to avoid movment. On the other hand people keep telling me to buy the biggest machine i can afford. My concern with regard to size is maybe more about machine weight than money. Both are a concern though.

So those are my two major questions heady type and size. So what do people think.

I will do a breakdown below on the machines i am consodering and cost. I have pretty much crossed Hammer off the list.

Hammer A3-31 with spiral cutter $4300 600lbs

Hammer A-41 with spiral cutter $6500 850lbs

Minimax FS30 $3900 with Tersa head 600lbs

Minimax FS30 with upgraded Byrd head $5000 600lbs

Minimax FS 41 with Tersa $5300 800lbs

Minimax FS 41 with upgraded Byrd head $6800 800lbs

And the splurge that im realy inclined to go with.

Felder AD741 with Spiral cutter $10700. Tis machine unlike the others has electronic planer and jointer height adjustment a fold down comfort Euro guard like the ones found on those Green German made machines and cost $2000 alone! Plus it has two feed rates. No other machine on the list offers the multiple feed rates. 1100 lbs!!!

The other thing to consider is i have to wait to buy even the least expensive machine on the list. Two months for the bottom of the line Hammer, four moths for any other machine and ten months wait if i go Felder. I have a lunchbox planer now and a 6" jointer so this is not a have to have just a I'm sick of my machines limitations. Mostly tear out and bogging down the planer.

So what would you do and why?

 

[Billedis]

I have a Grizzly 15" planer and their 6" joiner, both with spiral heads.  For sake of space, I would go with the Hammer-Felder A41 with the spiral cutter head.  Precision, precision, precision.  Bill

 

[shanegrilah]

Iceclimber,

I have a Minimax FS41 Elite with Tersa head in a basement shop. Got it down a full flight of steps alone by building a track from 2x lumber and a dolly that the machine was bolted to, rolled it from the back of my truck and lowered down the steps with a chain come along. Removed the jointer tables to save weight down the steps but I wouldn't recommend that because it's a pain to realign them.

Blade changes are easy but I think they require several on/off cycles to get completely seated in place. Don't do a lot a figured but what little I've run hasn't been a problem. I rarely use the the full 16" width of the machine but there have been a few projects that I'm glad I had the capacity over 12". The planer does have two speeds.

My personal experience with a spiral cutter head is that when jointing it produced a very smooth surface. So smooth that I could feel some suction when removing small boards from the outfeed table. But planing produced a slightly rippled surface which would require sanding to smooth. Not sure if that was the head or the machines fault though. The Tersa produces smooth surfaces in both jointing and planer modes.

Some pictures of the move to the basement shown below.

Shane

[attachthumb=1][attachthumb=2][attachthumb=3][attachthumb=4]

 

[Iceclimber]

Its funny the Tersa guys claim better precision over the spiral cutter. They claim the spiral leaves little lines leangthwise or scalloping. I believe them as i have seen it the one time i used a spiral cutter. They also claim the ease of blade change allowes for the use of a diffrent sets of knifes for different work or ruff cut vrs final finish. Makes sense in theory.

The spiral guys claim no tear out and thus better precision. And extremly long blade life.

I guess i have come to seemit like this. All my work is going to see some sanding, scraping or planing after it comes off the jointer/planer. My biggest frustration jointing and plaining is tear out in figured wood and burning through blades ina afternoon. For this reason i thins the spiral head is for me.

So the question becomes 12" or 14" machine. Is it worth the extra $$$ to go Minimax with a upgraded Byrd head over the Hammer stuff. I think so. So much im kinda willing to go 12" Minimax with Byrd head over the 16" Hammer at. Comparable price.

Then part of me feels like if im going to go 16" and im already stretching the budget. Add to that adding a second oarty cutter head to a brand new machine and all that has to be considered with that should i just splurge and go for the 16" Felder $10700?

Its a long wait and stinks as i need $1000 in accesories for my new used SawStop and about $2500 in dust collection stuff. I also plan to add heat to my shop before next winter and that will cost another $1500. All this is very costly and going to take time either way 5K jointer or 11K jointer. Both ill have forever so?

If the 12" minimax with the upgraded Byrd head is all i need it dpsure would save me a ton of money. Enough to buy that Oneida Smart dust collector Sawstop accesories and the heat. But man once i had that Felder machine sitting in my shop i dont think i could ever regret it.

 

I have a Grizzly 15" planer and their 6" joiner, both with spiral heads.  For sake of space, I would go with the Hammer-Felder A41 with the spiral cutter head.  Precision, precision, precision.  Bill

 

[Iceclimber]

Those are some great pictures. If only i could get a vehicle backed up to my shop door this would be much more easy. I have a fenced yard stepping stone walkway and stone patio that complicates this move even further. Worse is i installed it all myself last summer. Think 18 tons of oversized bluestone and about the same in subase if not more and three back breaking months working sun up to sun down literally. No way i a, driving a machine over that hardscape!

Iceclimber,

I have a Minimax FS41 Elite with Tersa head in a basement shop. Got it down a full flight of steps alone by building a track from 2x lumber and a dolly that the machine was bolted to, rolled it from the back of my truck and lowered down the steps with a chain come along. Removed the jointer tables to save weight down the steps but I wouldn't recommend that because it's a pain to realign them.

Blade changes are easy but I think they require several on/off cycles to get completely seated in place. Don't do a lot a figured but what little I've run hasn't been a problem. I rarely use the the full 16" width of the machine but there have been a few projects that I'm glad I had the capacity over 12". The planer does have two speeds.

My personal experience with a spiral cutter head is that when jointing it produced a very smooth surface. So smooth that I could feel some suction when removing small boards from the outfeed table. But planing produced a slightly rippled surface which would require sanding to smooth. Not sure if that was the head or the machines fault though. The Tersa produces smooth surfaces in both jointing and planer modes.

Some pictures of the move to the basement shown below.

Shane

[attachthumb=1][attachthumb=2][attachthumb=3][attachthumb=4]

 

[Iceclimber]

Zzz

 

[Iceclimber]

This is the almost finished product of what i have to contend with in getting this machine into my shop. Well almost finished, bamboo is getting planted along the white fence around the left side of the patio and back panel that abuts the stone wall. Then some ornimentals like ferms, hosta, so fothr and so on. Maybe one more Japanese maple because i just cant help myself

I also have to get that SawStop in the same space. At the moment my these pictures are buried under 106" of snow!

 

[rst]

Use sheets of plywood, not OSB, and leapfrog them to get to the basement.  Roofers use this method to not destroy their clients yards (well good roofers do anyway).

 

[Iceclimber]

Bellow is a pic of me moving my prized Lions Head Japanese Maple. I used particle board as i had it lying around. This time as you suggested plywood is in order.

For what it cost me to buy that tree i could have the A3-31. The whole yard project would had built me a full shop of Felder or Minimax machines and Festool hand tools. I like plants and trees as much as woodworking though so no regrets.

Bellow is the $10700 Felder with all the bells and whistles. This one is missing the tricked out fence but you get it.

Next link in the Minimax FS30. I would add the spiral cutter.

Keep in mind when cinsidering if i need a 16" machine vrs. 12" that next year i will add a 36" drum sander to my shop.

http://m.skelbiu.lt/skelbimai/felder-ad741-reismusas-leistuvas-20852336.html

Use sheets of plywood, not OSB, and leapfrog them to get to the basement.  Roofers use this method to not destroy their clients yards (well good roofers do anyway).

 

[Tinker]

Be careful planting bamboo.  Some are extremely invasive and almost impossible to destroy when it is realized they have become very destructive.  Some states have outlawed nursery sales of the plant.  There are some cultivars that are not invasive.  I don't know what are and what are not without research.  I have a friend who planted bamboo to screen his property from a neighbor.  He is now looking at a legal battle from both neighbor and the state.  The screen has become much more than a screen. Very destructive
Tinker

 

[Iceclimber]

Tinker,

I am aware of the bamboo problem. Funny you should mention your friend having a problem with a neighbor as this yard project of mine all started as a result of a new neighbor. I didn't even have a fence a year ago so this has been a major undertaking with regard to both time and money.

Short end of a long story is the guy is a pervert and a peeper that liked to trespass. I even went as far as having a video surveillance system installed that captures 100% of my property. Yup more money. I really should had just moved as I'm still stuck with the guy. At the time moving was a hard concept to adopt as i had just spent $25k redoing my heating and cooling system.

Anyway the Bamboo, i know all about rhizome thing and spreading nature of bamboo. I actually built a rhizome barrier into the perimeter of my patio and the area i plan to plant it. It goes down 36" and totally incapsulates it. Still that is no guarantee so i will go with the clumping varieties of bamboo that are not supposed to run and or spread as much.

If i could think of something else to plant along the fence to get some added privacy and go with my theme i would do it in a minute vrs the headache and risk of bamboo.

Plus the stuff is pricy. Like $150 for a pot with about ten stalks about 10' high. I need like 20 pots. So another $2500 or so just for bamboo!

Thats my Onieda Smart Dust Collector right there.....

Be careful planting bamboo.  Some are extremely invasive and almost impossible to destroy when it is realized they have become very destructive.  Some states have outlawed nursery sales of the plant.  There are some cultivars that are not invasive.  I don't know what are and what are not without research.  I have a friend who planted bamboo to screen his property from a neighbor.  He is now looking at a legal battle from both neighbor and the state.  The screen has become much more than a screen. Very destructive
Tinker

 

[tbellemare]

I wanted more privacy in our back yard than a 6' fence offered so I got some bamboo. I got 3 different clumping varieties that were all recommended for our climate. The one that I like most after a few years and harsh winters is Alphonse Karr. It grows fast and tall enough, is cold hearty, and looks cool.

I think I paid $50 for about a 2-gallon pot of it that was about 5' tall. I got it at a bamboo sale at our local botanical garden.

What I have since learned is that I could have cut that pot into 4 and had 4 plants and wouldn't notice the difference. I have been propagating that one plant and now have four. I just use a recip' saw to cut a chunk out (cut the roots) and move it to the new location. In about 3 years, the plant is pretty awesome.

Bamboo is just a grass but is, I think, the fastest growing organism on the planet.

The clumping bamboos are completely different from the running varieties. The rhizomes make a tight "U" shape and come up right next to one another. The clump grows in size but doesn't run all over.

Tom

 

[Thunderchyld]

Moving weird stuff is a sideline of mine.  I got into it because of being involved in rope access.  You already talk about further purchases that will need to be moved to the same entrance, so my suggestion is to pick up a few AlturnaMats and use them the same way you would the plywood.  http://www.alturnamats.com/  There's also a good chance that a local tree service or equipment rental place would have a set you could rent or borrow.  If you're buying, they now manufacture a clear version to avoid burning the underlying lawn.

I've used them in the past to protect lawns from a bucket truck, skid steer, telehandler, and so forth.  I think the most impressive lift I've ever done with them for ground protection was placing a 12 person hot tub on a 3rd story deck after the lawn had been freshly redone.  We were supposed to have a 100 ton crane there that day and had intended on parking that in the driveway and lifting the tub over the house, but they broke down and couldn't meet the timetables.

 

[Iceclimber]

Thanks for the tips.

So no regrets so far?

I relize i could purchase less now and move or transplant the stuff as it grows and spreads. Another reason for the inflated cost on my part is wanting plants at least 10' tall to start.

Gotta pay to play like anything and i want that privacy like yesterday.

I wanted more privacy in our back yard than a 6' fence offered so I got some bamboo. I got 3 different clumping varieties that were all recommended for our climate. The one that I like most after a few years and harsh winters is Alphonse Karr. It grows fast and tall enough, is cold hearty, and looks cool.

I think I paid $50 for about a 2-gallon pot of it that was about 5' tall. I got it at a bamboo sale at our local botanical garden.

What I have since learned is that I could have cut that pot into 4 and had 4 plants and wouldn't notice the difference. I have been propagating that one plant and now have four. I just use a recip' saw to cut a chunk out (cut the roots) and move it to the new location. In about 3 years, the plant is pretty awesome.

Bamboo is just a grass but is, I think, the fastest growing organism on the planet.

The clumping bamboos are completely different from the running varieties. The rhizomes make a tight "U" shape and come up right next to one another. The clump grows in size but doesn't run all over.

Tom

 

[Iceclimber]

Those matts look worthwhile. The plywood is $25 a sheet at least and will just get thrown in a dumpster when I'm done.

Buying he pallet jack is what is really going to kill me. I could borrow one but i dont think they have breaks. Im pretty sure a break is going to me mandatory for me moving a machine 600-1100 lb machine down that slight grade to my back door,

Any other ideas for me.

One good thing about buying a pallet jack is instead of mobile bases i can just use the pallet jack to move machines around my shop. Plus I have it for future equipment purchases.  Storing it will be the only thing that is a drag other than the cost.

Man this is a expensive hobby. I thought ice climbing gear was bad!

Moving weird stuff is a sideline of mine.  I got into it because of being involved in rope access.  You already talk about further purchases that will need to be moved to the same entrance, so my suggestion is to pick up a few AlturnaMats and use them the same way you would the plywood.  http://www.alturnamats.com/  There's also a good chance that a local tree service or equipment rental place would have a set you could rent or borrow.  If you're buying, they now manufacture a clear version to avoid burning the underlying lawn.

I've used them in the past to protect lawns from a bucket truck, skid steer, telehandler, and so forth.  I think the most impressive lift I've ever done with them for ground protection was placing a 12 person hot tub on a 3rd story deck after the lawn had been freshly redone.  We were supposed to have a 100 ton crane there that day and had intended on parking that in the driveway and lifting the tub over the house, but they broke down and couldn't meet the timetables.

 

[tbellemare]

So no regrets so far?

No, we're pretty happy with the screen. The neighbors behind us are both uphill from us and have a second story deck that overlooks our backyard. I don't want to see them and the bamboo is doing the trick. It's also quite attractive, especially in the breeze.

Tom

EDIT:
Another thing I do is trim the leaves off below the fence top once they are established. The canes are striped and it's nice to expose them.

 

[rvieceli]

I'd be tempted to get a bid from a rigging company to take it from the curb and drop it in front of your basement door. They do this sort of stuff day in and day out. Depending on your layout it might not take that big of a crane. Plus they'll be insured.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I'd be tempted to get a bid from a rigging company to take it from the curb and drop it in front of your basement door. They do this sort of stuff day in and day out. Depending on your layout it might not take that big of a crane. Plus they'll be insured.

Its 800 pounds. A couple 2x6 runners and some 1 1/2" pvc pipe to roll the machine on.

Before anyone says pvc pipe won't work, i have had up to 3k pounds rolling on pvc. 

Two guys and a hand truck can move 800 pounds.

 

[Iceclimber]

Half the fun of buying a big machine like this is figuring out how to both afford it then get it in my house.

Id never hire someone to do this for me. You see that big icicle in my avatar i climbed that. I had to fly from Boston to the Canadian rockies put up with one cranky climbing partner for two weeks sleeping in flea bag hotels. Then it took 2.5 hours to snow shoe into the climb. Another three plus hours to climb it then another 2.5 hours to snow shoe out. Along the way we almost got taken out by various avalanches and a myriad of giant falling icicles. Hardest part of the day was dinner with the climbing partner if you can believe it.

If i installed that yard by myself i surely can get this machine into my house wit another guy. Each one of those stones for the walkway and patio weighed 300-700lbs. At first i was solely using a machine to move them. After about a week of that i figured coupled with figuring out getting them into exact place with a machine would be impossible that moving them by hand was much less frustrating in the end. Hard hard work yes, but the at least the blood pressure was lower than trying to get them just right with a 3000lb machine.

Even the biggest rock i could lift off the ground up onto its side and then roll it like a wagon wheel. Yup even the square and rectangular ones. Sure i one would get away from me from time to time but i never once damaged anything as a result.

I realize this machine is a precision piece of equipment and must be handled with care. Im a carpenter/contractor/builder. People pay me a few hundred bucks a day to do whatever they want me to. I don't really have that luxury to pay someone a few hundred bucks to do something for me hence i do everything myself

Plus even if i could afford it i could never justify it knowing i am capable myself.

Picture bellow of the current project i am working on. By the time the project is done i will have done everything from framing to trimming and siding the exterior to putting on a cedar shake roof, trimming out the whole interior including building builtins closets you name it. I even organize the dumpster every friday before they come pick it up for the week.

 

[Thunderchyld]

They do make pallet jacks with brakes, IIRC, I paid $325 for mine from Uline.  Every so often I debate putting brakes on my all terrain pallet jack, also from Uline, but I haven't gotten around to doing so. 

If you don't want to buy one, many of the rental companies will rent out a pallet jack, heck, quick google and I see even the home despot rents them out.

Another idea, regarding the brakes/backyard grade issue, you are a climber, belay it down.  I'd suggest a Petzl Tuba or a porta wrap(arborist lowering device, for rigging) rather than an ATC or a fig 8, but a rescue 8 with a double wrap would provide enough friction.  Or put a block and tackle in the system and belay the tailing end.  That way the load would be about the same as lowering a climber, figuring a 4:1 or 5:1 B&T.

I've spent a bit of time doing similar stonework myself, always amuses me when we've got an excavator to use and barely use the thing.  By the time we got the stones chained and hung from the excavator arm, we'd already have it placed using sledges, levers, and rollers.