Alignment problem with Domino 500

Telescopist

Member
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
23
Well I'm in a jam. I've marked out for all my mortises 're: a dining room table I'm using a 10mm domino. I cut all the aprons first. Made the one that will be closest to underside of the table one step larger for adjustment purposes. All the mortises came out nicely centered and properly aligned- two per 4" apron. Then I began cutting the mortises for the legs. Here is where I ran into trouble. The oversized mortise closest to the bottom of the table is offset 2mm to the other mortise. I have planned on around a 3/16" indent from the front face of the leg.  However the apron is twisted because of the fact that the 2 mortises are not coplaner. I had to quit work until this issue is resolved. TIA.
 
It's hard for me to visualize the problem from your description, but when I mis-cut a mortise with either of my Dominos, I glue in a tenon to fit the mortise and then cut the excess with a flush cut Japanese saw. If it is a wide mortise, I have to fill in with pieces of two tenons. Then, I recut the mortise.

Unfortunately, I have a lot of practice doing this.
 
2mm is a pretty significant deviation.  Without being able to see the issue, first two thoughts would be: 1) check for fence slippage, and that the fence was all the way locked; and 2) double check that you were flush to the face on both plunges.  In terms of correcting the error, Birdhunter's advice is sound.

Telescopist said:
Well I'm in a jam. I've marked out for all my mortises 're: a dining room table I'm using a 10mm domino. I cut all the aprons first. Made the one that will be closest to underside of the table one step larger for adjustment purposes. All the mortises came out nicely centered and properly aligned- two per 4" apron. Then I began cutting the mortises for the legs. Here is where I ran into trouble. The oversized mortise closest to the bottom of the table is offset 2mm to the other mortise. I have planned on around a 3/16" indent from the front face of the leg.  However the apron is twisted because of the fact that the 2 mortises are not coplaner. I had to quit work until this issue is resolved. TIA.
 
Thanks all. What I ended up doing was chiseling out a wide opening in order to get the apron parallel and set back from the leg where I want it to be. It is a bit disconcerting because I consider myself to be a pretty good machine operator after 35 years or so of practice. And, the vids make it look all so repetitively easy... I will take some scrap 2.5 x 2.5 and practice some more. Despite the fact that the whole thing is a bit perplexing. It appears that the problem lies with the #2 position for the wider opening. But I'm not ready to swear that is the issue. Yet.
 
Check out Peter Parfitt's video on table making part 2.



You can either rely on pencil marks or adopt the spacer method. The Parfitt method, in effect, is the trim stop in reverse. The principle of using an edge to register the side of the Domino Shoe is the key to matching up the apron and leg mortises.

Peter makes the case for relying on spacers to set the placement of the mortises. The easiest way to calculate the spacers is to make a template that matches the exact width of the Domino shoe, then draw a center line. On a scrap piece exactly the width of your apron, locate the center point of each of the mortises. By stacking the shoe template and the location of the each of the  mortise centers, you can measure the distance of your spacer to the edge of the shoe. If you have two mortises, you will have two spacers with differing widths. Peter uses both sides of a board to register the side of the Domino. The jig Peter uses in the video has a left and right side, each using the spacers.

On your project, I would make new aprons and fully adopt the Parfitt spacer system.

The whole video has some other interesting tips, particularly how to hold the Domino when making cuts.

Good Luck

 
Thank you very much. I will pour over this vid. I'm feeling a bit demoralized right about now. I had imagined that this process of making accurate mortises between legs and apron would be simpler then it apparently is. I did not make a template which was dumb. Instead I simply 'custom' aligned each leg with it's respective apron end and taped a number to each. But that rather tedious time consuming way of doing things really isn't the issue. Obviously it has to do with my technique or lack thereof. Or...if not that, is it possible that the boring stroke when set at the middle position is throwing the cut off by as much as 2mm? Just askin' if this is even a remote possibility... I'm going to do some sample cuts today. I assuming that there is a way of attaching images?
BTW, is there a way of getting instant email notification to replies? I do not see any prompts to do that.
 
[member=33861]Telescopist[/member]

Attaching images can be very confusing initially but once you get the hang of it its easy.

Notifications are working for me.
Check to see that you have them turned on in your profile under "notifications".
 
The devil is in the details:

No woodworking job has hard and fast rules but there are always essentials:

1. Planning-These can be sketches, working drawings, Sketchup renderings, miniatures or full scale mock-ups. Krenov said, “Decide what you want to build and why.”  Steven Covey says..”Begin with the end in mind.” It may be a sketch but work it out visually before beginning. That is the best advice for any woodworker.  I prefer working drawings I get from various sources such a Fine Woodworking. My immediate challenge is to adapt old drawings with mortise and tenon joinery to the Domino system but before I start, I have the changes in hand and in the case of a recent table my cut list eliminated the tenon lengths.

2. Wood and product selection-Krenov reminds, “You have to judge each piece of wood individually and keep your eyes and your mind open to the possibilities.” It is not just pine or maple; it is grain, color, moisture content, subject to seasonal movement. Parts are important. Having the hinge selected, the screw sizes, and hardware leads to successful job selection.

3. Process selection- The Domino is not a tool, it is an idea. Therefore, before setting out, it is important to understand just what is going on with the Domino. The absolute base concept of the Domino is that everything relies on a center point. Therefore, at every step, the matching up of floating tenons (Dominos) depends of references the center point of each mortise with a common edge. Peter Parfitt constantly reminds, “You have to have a scheme.” That is why in advance, layout of the aprons, left, right and top, bottom is critical to the Domino process. I mark all parts in chalk. In a table leg/apron system, it is usually best to work off the top, outside edge. The point is that every cut must work off a common edge and the center point is the main focus of the process.

4. Pre-test- My Dad used to mutter, “I cut this off twice, and it is still too short.”  My dad, though, made practice runs. We had to keep cardboard around to scribe boat floor boards and would check the fit of cardboard cut-outs before cutting. Trying out something in advance is why we keep scrap wood around. There is a learning curve to the Domino. “Don’t be in a hurry.” Krenov is reported as telling his students. There is a trick to firmly seating the Domino as well as properly viewing the center line. Best work out these issues in advance.

5. Check List: In any process, there are steps. The Domino is a process with basic variables. In the beginning, it might seem elementary but airline pilots don’t fly planes without their checklist books on their lap. In the beginning, have a cheat card with the list of setting, cutter size, depth of cut, height and width. On off-set depths there might be two settings. On legs and aprons a reveal is possible by adjusting the height. Add to it reminds like registering off the top edge or outside edge. Who know, the dog may bark to go out and you become distracted, a check-list, at least in the beginning work out both the steps and the critical variable of using the Domino.

6. Critical issues- To understand the Domino, it is important to understand the relationship of the shoe and the work piece. It is essential to have a template the exact width of the shoe to hold up to work pieces to check the location of the center point.  The height of the cutter center is 10mm from the shoe.  This is 3/8 inch. This dimension helps work out the placement of plunge cuts. Plunge cuts require extreme caution. CAUTION: THE DIRECTION ON THE “ON” SWITCH IS IN THE DIRECTION OF THE PLUNGE. If new, and attempting a plunge cut, you may not be fully ready for the plunge and start the plunge by turning on the Domino. Plunge cuts need practice more than any other operation of the Domino. The Domino is badly designed for plunge cuts. The lever and the angle nut interfere with seating the router on a registration edge. The tiny nut of the angle guide is 1 inch from the edge so if you want to use a registration edge, you have about a 1 inch length in which to work.

7. Measuring techniques- As a kid, I worked in a boat yard. I could not understand why boat builders never used measuring tapes. I watched many walk over with a small stick in hand with a pencil mark and set the width of the band saw or table saw. Planes flew in boat building.  Wood was made to fit curved spaces by eye not by measure. I think my experience in the boat yard is why the Parfitt spacer system works for me.  Measure, when you only have to.

On your issue, I would check which edge on which you are registering the cut. If your cut system has integrity, there is no reason to cut a wider mortise. Set up a system which relies on the narrowest setting.
 
Telescopist said:
Thank you very much. I will pour over this vid. I'm feeling a bit demoralized right about now. I had imagined that this process of making accurate mortises between legs and apron would be simpler then it apparently is. I did not make a template which was dumb. Instead I simply 'custom' aligned each leg with it's respective apron end and taped a number to each. But that rather tedious time consuming way of doing things really isn't the issue. Obviously it has to do with my technique or lack thereof. Or...if not that, is it possible that the boring stroke when set at the middle position is throwing the cut off by as much as 2mm? Just askin' if this is even a remote possibility... I'm going to do some sample cuts today. I assuming that there is a way of attaching images?
BTW, is there a way of getting instant email notification to replies? I do not see any prompts to do that.

Thank you very much for the link. It makes sense that if your are doing a one off or a production run that it makes sense to create spacers. What I like the most though is the fact that the middle board rides along the bottom of the Domino. Thus you have so much more stability while making the cuts. I decided not to start from scratch. This would have involved purchase more material from a specialty lumber yard some distance away. This is not to say that I won't purchase material in the event that my mock clamp up does not show that all 4 aprons are evenly offset by around 3mm. I'll find out tomorrow.
 
Bohdan said:
[member=33861]Telescopist[/member]

Attaching images can be very confusing initially but once you get the hang of it its easy.

Notifications are working for me.
Check to see that you have them turned on in your profile under "notifications".

Okay. Thanks for the link!
 
i apologize for not responding before this. Some of what you wrote provoked thought. Some of what you wrote I already either knew or has become a part of my work-flow. A few things you wrote I would mildly disagree with. In particular, your statement that: "The Domino is not a tool, it is an idea" seems rather obscure. However, if the Domino is more tool than idea, what you wrote here: "To understand the Domino, it is important to understand the relationship of the shoe and the work piece. It is essential to have a template the exact width of the shoe to hold up to work pieces to check the location of the center point" makes entirely good sense. In any event thanks for the effort you put into your response to my issue.

Here is an update of sorts. I had to do a bit of widening mortises (just a few) and paring down some 10mm dominos because of alignment issues, machine operator incompetency or some combination thereof. I dried fitted the apron-leg structure (@60"x32") first. What a pain taking it apart. That is the last dry fit I ever do if I can help it. Those 10mm dominos are tight! I glued one domino in each leg mortise that was sized exactly for the domino. I assembled/glued/clamped the to two long apron-leg runs first. I checked for squareness and was dead on. Once the glue set up, I attached, glued, and clamped the short runs to the long runs. I thought this was a much less stressful process then attempting to glue the entire base up in one go. It was in the upper 80's here and I was by myself. Everyone I am sure has dealt with the problem of yellow glue setting up while you have run into a snafu. Once I pulled the clamps off, I turned the base over onto my work bench and measured the distance diagonally from the corner of one leg to the corner of its counterpart. I found the difference between the two diagonal runs to be about 1/8".

Thanks for the link to Parfitts vid. Very instructive. No more time consuming marking out for me! Templates here I come. If I am disappointed in anything it would have to be the fact that my apron-leg set back is not quite what I would like. The other thing I learned was that it is a waste of time to make one of the mortises longer for adjustment purposes. When I had the legs-aprons in clamps and attempted to get the apron flush with the top of the leg with a dead blow hammer it would not budge. Then I realized that of course if one mortise is exactly the same size as the domino you aren't going to be able to make any slight adjustments regardless of how large the other mortise is! Duh.

clark_fork said:
The devil is in the details:

No woodworking job has hard and fast rules but there are always essentials:

1. Planning-These can be sketches, working drawings, Sketchup renderings, miniatures or full scale mock-ups. Krenov said, “Decide what you want to build and why.”  Steven Covey says..”Begin with the end in mind.” It may be a sketch but work it out visually before beginning. That is the best advice for any woodworker.  I prefer working drawings I get from various sources such a Fine Woodworking. My immediate challenge is to adapt old drawings with mortise and tenon joinery to the Domino system but before I start, I have the changes in hand and in the case of a recent table my cut list eliminated the tenon lengths.

2. Wood and product selection-Krenov reminds, “You have to judge each piece of wood individually and keep your eyes and your mind open to the possibilities.” It is not just pine or maple; it is grain, color, moisture content, subject to seasonal movement. Parts are important. Having the hinge selected, the screw sizes, and hardware leads to successful job selection.

3. Process selection- The Domino is not a tool, it is an idea. Therefore, before setting out, it is important to understand just what is going on with the Domino. The absolute base concept of the Domino is that everything relies on a center point. Therefore, at every step, the matching up of floating tenons (Dominos) depends of references the center point of each mortise with a common edge. Peter Parfitt constantly reminds, “You have to have a scheme.” That is why in advance, layout of the aprons, left, right and top, bottom is critical to the Domino process. I mark all parts in chalk. In a table leg/apron system, it is usually best to work off the top, outside edge. The point is that every cut must work off a common edge and the center point is the main focus of the process.

4. Pre-test- My Dad used to mutter, “I cut this off twice, and it is still too short.”  My dad, though, made practice runs. We had to keep cardboard around to scribe boat floor boards and would check the fit of cardboard cut-outs before cutting. Trying out something in advance is why we keep scrap wood around. There is a learning curve to the Domino. “Don’t be in a hurry.” Krenov is reported as telling his students. There is a trick to firmly seating the Domino as well as properly viewing the center line. Best work out these issues in advance.

5. Check List: In any process, there are steps. The Domino is a process with basic variables. In the beginning, it might seem elementary but airline pilots don’t fly planes without their checklist books on their lap. In the beginning, have a cheat card with the list of setting, cutter size, depth of cut, height and width. On off-set depths there might be two settings. On legs and aprons a reveal is possible by adjusting the height. Add to it reminds like registering off the top edge or outside edge. Who know, the dog may bark to go out and you become distracted, a check-list, at least in the beginning work out both the steps and the critical variable of using the Domino.

6. Critical issues- To understand the Domino, it is important to understand the relationship of the shoe and the work piece. It is essential to have a template the exact width of the shoe to hold up to work pieces to check the location of the center point.  The height of the cutter center is 10mm from the shoe.  This is 3/8 inch. This dimension helps work out the placement of plunge cuts. Plunge cuts require extreme caution. CAUTION: THE DIRECTION ON THE “ON” SWITCH IS IN THE DIRECTION OF THE PLUNGE. If new, and attempting a plunge cut, you may not be fully ready for the plunge and start the plunge by turning on the Domino. Plunge cuts need practice more than any other operation of the Domino. The Domino is badly designed for plunge cuts. The lever and the angle nut interfere with seating the router on a registration edge. The tiny nut of the angle guide is 1 inch from the edge so if you want to use a registration edge, you have about a 1 inch length in which to work.

7. Measuring techniques- As a kid, I worked in a boat yard. I could not understand why boat builders never used measuring tapes. I watched many walk over with a small stick in hand with a pencil mark and set the width of the band saw or table saw. Planes flew in boat building.  Wood was made to fit curved spaces by eye not by measure. I think my experience in the boat yard is why the Parfitt spacer system works for me.  Measure, when you only have to.

On your issue, I would check which edge on which you are registering the cut. If your cut system has integrity, there is no reason to cut a wider mortise. Set up a system which relies on the narrowest setting.
 
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