All MFT Jigs Do Not Need to Be Pretty

[woodshopdemos]

In completing the 12 drawer chest  of drawers, I came up with this very simple jig to cut drawer box parts.

Now let me quickly add that I will love the fancy new product ( new parallel guide for the guide rails, ) that Festool is making abroad. But in the meantime, this sure works well.

Story:http://www.woodshopdemos.com/sidebd-two-8.htm

 

[woody]

Simplicity and accuracy equal time and money saved!  Good job!  I visit you site quite often and i love the way you got it set up!  Im following your cabinet and look forward to seeing the progress.  Keep up the good work!

 

[nclemmons]

John -

Really nice work on the chest and making all those drawers. 

Did you spray or brush on the finish?  Curious as well how the interior of the drawers were finished -

Thanks for the step-by-step!

neil

 

[nickao]

Some of my jigs look so bad my kids go to throw them out when helping me clean my shop. Then I show them what they are for and how they work, now they are afraid to throw out scrap wood!

 

[woodshopdemos]

woody - I am the original KISS person.

neil - Sal took unfinished unit home and painted by brush. I am sure he  used white acrylic. Drawers were left unfinished even tho I asked him to spray with a can of shellac -- what I always do on raw wood.

Nick, that is a problem -- even with a big SAVE.

 

[fshanno]

Does FESTOOL know what we are doing with their TS product line?  Do they know we are making cabinets and furniture?  I bet they don't.  What we are doing is fundamentally am American thing.  Germans don't think like us (even though about 30% of us are of German descent)  When we buy a product the first thing we do is try to figure out a way to use it for something it was not designed for.

What many of us thought we were buying when we bought a TS55 or 75 and some guides was an upside down cabinet saw that we can toss in the back of the pickup.  Now our upside down, 30 pound cabinet saw is the safest saw the world has ever seen but it has two glaring deficiencies.  First, the fence doesn't attach to anything.  It just sits there on the top of the saw, loose.  So we have to use a tape to figure out parallel and cut width and clamp the fence down with C clamps to use it.  The second deficiency is that there is no miter track.  There's nothing for the rails on our crosscut sleds and miter gauges to ride in.  So we have to eyeball perpendicular as well.  Does this stop us?  No way.  We make beautiful, functional furniture eyeballing it all the way. 

If FESTOOL knew what we were doing they would think we were nuts.  "You need to go buy a $17,000 slider and a $9000 combination machine if you want to make cabinets and furniture!" cries FESTOOL,  "The TS system is for trim carpentry, flooring, decks, stair treads, stuff like that.  People shouldn't be trying to make cabinets and furniture in their garages anyway.  Impossible."

Well FESTOOL did relent and gave us a miter track for our portable cabinet saw.  And what a miter track.  It doubles as one of the most useful portable work benches ever made.  Can you sand boards with the miter track of a Powermatic 2000 or a SawStop?  I don't think so.  It's not the most accurate miter slot in the world but we're good at eyeballing so it's not a big problem.  The only down side was that the miter track more than doubled the weight of our saw but it's still less than 100 pounds.

So now we're waiting on rails for our fence.  Looks like that may be on the way but I'm not holding my breath.

One thing kind of baffles me though.  Why doesn't Incra or Jessem or Rockler or somebody make after market gear for our portable cabinet saws?  They make stuff for every other cabinet saw.  I don't get it.

 

[John Stevens]

Nice, John.  I did a similar thing with my MFT while building 20 drawers for shop cabinets last summer.  It really converted me to cutting on the right side of the guide rail.

The key to quick and dirty setups like this is to have scraps of the correct thickness on hand, and IMO that can be done with fairly little time, effort or storage space.  One of the SOPs I've adopted is to (usually) mill my stock to the same thicknesses as the sheet goods I buy (~12mm and 18mm in ply and MDF) because it's so easy to keep scrap pieces of that in the shop.  Squares with sides that are roughly as wide as the guide rail are easy to store, so you've only got to cut them once.

Regards,

John

 

[micke]

Does FESTOOL know what we are doing with their TS product line?  Do they know we are making cabinets and furniture?  I bet they don't.  What we are doing is fundamentally am American thing.  Germans don't think like us (even though about 30% of us are of German descent)  When we buy a product the first thing we do is try to figure out a way to use it for something it was not designed for.

So with a clear risk of offending someone  - I hope your pulling our legs here overseas!

"... is fundamentally an American thing." - Sweet Jezus!  if this is not intended as a joke you better get yourself a passport to cure that ignorance of yours.

That kind of statement is that what people around here (Sweden) would use to maliciously portrait Americans.

So take a chance and get to see the world.

Welcome Overseas!

( and no - we don't accept coloured beads as payment here in Europe... ;D )

 

[woodshopdemos]

Micke,
  You did note that the quote was not from me.

 

[micke]

John,

Jepp, I really hope I did not violate some "thread rules" when it comes to how to reply; but I felt the quote was so "special" I just had to object (but not so big it was worth a new thread).

I you feel I've hijacked your thread pls let me know and I'll remove my post.

Btw, the beauty of the jig lies in the eye of the beholder - which I guess is a carpenter who wants things done - right?

 

[fshanno]

So with a clear risk of offending someone  - I hope your pulling our legs here overseas!

"... is fundamentally an American thing." - Sweet Jezus!  if this is not intended as a joke you better get yourself a passport to cure that ignorance of yours.

That kind of statement is that what people around here (Sweden) would use to maliciously portrait Americans.

So take a chance and get to see the world.

Welcome Overseas!

( and no - we don't accept coloured beads as payment here in Europe... ;D )

Micke,

That did sound bad didn't it.  Sorry.  And yes, I was being cute and yes, I am ignorant.

It's just the frustration that FESTOOL doesn't seem to share the vision of replacing the table saw with the guided saw.  Another guide maker here in the States calls it the "dead wood" concept and pursues the goal of replacing the table saw aggressively.

Look at the clever ripping jig in the photo.  That's what set me off.  Why are we having to do this?  Four clamps and several pieces of wood.  8 or 9 parts.  On a table saw?  Just slide the fence over.  I think FESTOOL can come up with a way to "just slide the fence over".

Your post raises an interesting question.  I implied that only Americans would be pushing for FESTOOL to manufacture attachments extending the capability of the TS guide system so it could in effect replace the table saw and the panel saw for most cutting tasks.  You are offended by this implication and that indicates the European FESTOOL owners community HAS been pushing for this capability.  Do we all have a bigger vision for the potential of their product than they do?

 

[nickao]

Why does anyone have to replace a Table saw? Is the saw that scary and that unsafe that some people deem it needing replacement? I think not. I propose for certain operation there IS NO SUBSTITUTE for a table saw. It is the USER, not the table saw that makes it unsafe. I myself have been cut with the table saw, it was MY fault, not the saws.

A table saw is not inherently unsafe all. It is the operations that a user tries to get out of the saw without proper forethought that may be unsafe.

I do not share the vision of replacing the table saw using a guided system by Festool or any other company. I really do not think Festool needs to think in those terms either. Actually, Festool has its version of a table saw most likely because they deem it appropriate for the Festool system to work along side and not to replace a table saw.

The most popular reason that people TRY to get away with the Festool system instead of a table saw is SPACE(for in shop working). If space was not a consideration I would venture to say that most of the people getting rid of their table saw and getting the Festool system would actually keep the table saw. Every thread I have read on people going to an all Festool system is a space related problem followed by what some deem a safety consideration, which I disagree with.

The table saw is the mainstay of many shops and I see no reason for Festool to try to totally replace a table saw. I use my Festool stuff as a COMPLIMENT(cutting ply in stacks on site, etc) to the table saw and will NEVER get rid of my table saw, ever.

Nickao

 

[Jimhart]

Why does anyone have to replace a Table saw? Is the saw that scary and that unsafe that some people deem it needing replacement? I think not. I propose for certain operation there IS NO SUBSTITUTE for a table saw. It is the USER, not the table saw that makes it unsafe. I myself have been cut with the table saw, it was MY fault, not the saws.

A table saw is not inherently unsafe all. It is the operations that a user tries to get out of the saw without proper forethought that may be unsafe.

I do not share the vision of replacing the table saw using a guided system by Festool or any other company. I really do not think Festool needs to think in those terms either. Actually, Festool has its version of a table saw most likely because they deem it appropriate for the Festool system to work along side and not to replace a table saw.

The most popular reason that people TRY to get away with the Festool system instead of a table saw is SPACE(for in shop working). If space was not a consideration I would venture to say that most of the people getting rid of their table saw and getting the Festool system would actually keep the table saw. Every thread I have read on people going to an all Festool system is a space related problem followed by what some deem a safety consideration, which I disagree with.

The table saw is the mainstay of many shops and I see no reason for Festool to try to totally replace a table saw. I use my Festool stuff as a COMPLIMENT(cutting ply in stacks on site, etc) to the table saw and will NEVER get rid of my table saw, ever.

Nickao

Interesting thread. Not that it's a new discussion, just the way some points are being made.

I agree with Nick's point that making this a 'safety driven' push doesn't fly with me, and I do think space contributes to the push. I do think that the ability to rip safely and accurately on the job site is a valid reason to hope Festool continues to evolve the system.

The restrictive nature of UL approval is responsible for the NA crowd thinking we are dragging Festool to do things they haven't thought of. I suspect they are way ahead of us in many ways, it's our litigious society that keeps us from seeing it. Innovation is coming from all over the globe, while the role of the US has been declining for some time.

I think the repetitive ripping gizmo we've seen from the EU site looks pretty cool. It's also another $400+ for a couple of aluminum extrusions and some stops. Unless you're doing custom built-ins regularly, and can't plan ahead to do repetitive rips on your TS in your shop the night before, then I guess this will be money well spent.

I'm guessing roughly 50% of these will be sold to people who really need them and can see an ROI, the other 50% will go to people who think they are cool and want them more than they really need them. Not judging that, I have so much stuff in my garage that I've not used yet.........

I like using the MFT and the other tools in ways I never thought I would. For repetitive rips, my PM 66 does a great job and it's not going anywhere any time soon.

Jim

 

[nickao]

Yes Jim a few points made in this thread can probably be a thread in their own right. I am a sucker too and might even purchase that new parallel ripping gizmo if only to play around with it. I also have a few other idea that I was thinking of using it for.

I wish I had a PM 66 it's a heck of a machine!

 

[w00dbutcheruk]

well for me the festool guide system will never replace my sliding saw in the work shop, we rarely make the same sized cut with our cabinets and still the sliding saw wins over for me every time BUT on site i would and will use the ts55/75 happily all day long with the same results as my sliding saw (albeit a lot slower!).

the ts55/75 and guide rail has won a place in my van and will always be to hand, the panel saw will always be my number 1 for big cutting lists but i could not like to loose either one, if i had to i think i would choose.........

...... i dont think i can

 

[Mike Goetzke]

In completing the 12 drawer chest  of drawers, I came up with this very simple jig to cut drawer box parts.

Now let me quickly add that I will love the fancy new product ( new parallel guide for the guide rails, ) that Festool is making abroad. But in the meantime, this sure works well.

Story:http://www.woodshopdemos.com/sidebd-two-8.htm

I just happened to be working on the same task this weekend. I made 56 drawer box pieces for 14 drawers out of two 4'x8' sheets of 1/2" BB. I have a bench with a fence, scale, and clamping bridge. I think this task is much quicker, safer, and accurate than on the TS (but I still use my TS for many tasks). Only problem I had was getting shocked from the increased suction power of my new CT-33 without an anti-static hose:

 

[fshanno]

I just happened to be working on the same task this weekend.

Mike,

Great pictures.  Eurekazone makes cool stuff.  I'm going to see if I can make a fence like that for my MFT.  It'll probably come out even uglier than Johns jig.  But it will be a true fence that rides in the slot.  Maybe I'll use Power Bench parts.  Wouldn't that be ironic.  You think there might be some sort of reaction, like matter/anti-matter?

It would be easier if FESTOOL would just make a simple rip fence attachment for the MFT.  Or maybe they have, and it's only available in Europe, Bangladesh, Mars, everywhere but the US. 

 

[Mike Goetzke]

I just happened to be working on the same task this weekend.

Mike,

Great pictures.  Eurekazone makes cool stuff.  I'm going to see if I can make a fence like that for my MFT.  It'll probably come out even uglier than Johns jig.  But it will be a true fence that rides in the slot.  Maybe I'll use Power Bench parts.  Wouldn't that be ironic.  You think there might be some sort of reaction, like matter/anti-matter?

It would be easier if FESTOOL would just make a simple rip fence attachment for the MFT.  Or maybe they have, and it's only available in Europe, Bangladesh, Mars, everywhere but the US. 

You might notice I built a "squaring" fence on the near side of my bench. It looks a little weird with the black block but I built the rip fence to ride against the squaring fence. I cut the face of the squaring fence with a router that rode on the rail. So if you spend time to square the rail to the squaring fence the rip fence will be perfectly aligned to the rail.

Mike

 

[micke]

So with a clear risk of offending someone  - I hope your pulling our legs here overseas!

"... is fundamentally an American thing." - Sweet Jezus!  if this is not intended as a joke you better get yourself a passport to cure that ignorance of yours.

That kind of statement is that what people around here (Sweden) would use to maliciously portrait Americans.

So take a chance and get to see the world.

Welcome Overseas!

( and no - we don't accept coloured beads as payment here in Europe... ;D )

Micke,

That did sound bad didn't it.  Sorry.  And yes, I was being cute and yes, I am ignorant.

It's just the frustration that FESTOOL doesn't seem to share the vision of replacing the table saw with the guided saw.  Another guide maker here in the States calls it the "dead wood" concept and pursues the goal of replacing the table saw aggressively.

Look at the clever ripping jig in the photo.  That's what set me off.  Why are we having to do this?  Four clamps and several pieces of wood.  8 or 9 parts.  On a table saw?  Just slide the fence over.   I think FESTOOL can come up with a way to "just slide the fence over".

Your post raises an interesting question.  I implied that only Americans would be pushing for FESTOOL to manufacture attachments extending the capability of the TS guide system so it could in effect replace the table saw and the panel saw for most cutting tasks.  You are offended by this implication and that indicates the European FESTOOL owners community HAS been pushing for this capability.  Do we all have a bigger vision for the potential of their product than they do?

You're forgiven  I may have sounded harsher than I intended - sorry  :-(

Regarding the issue your addressing i would say that is actually two separate but related issues - Position and Clamping. Festool have a product line/system that address both I'd say. If we stick to what's applicable to the TS saw I get the following:

For the Positioning we have

  a) Guide rail

  b) The MFT (with some necessary 'jiggin')

  c) Festool FS PA parallel guide - NEW!!!

  d) FS-KS (the kind of useless angle device.; bought one but never really find any good use for it)

  e) Stop flags

  f) ...

For Clamping

  a) The guide rail

  b) The clamps - FSZ (screw), FS-HZ (quick)

  c) Dedicated MFT clamping elements

  d) The GECKOs

  e) ..

What you're after (I guess) is something that would help you to quickly position your guide rail in relation to something. The "problem" with this approach is that whatever you do involves measuring & squaring - right? To answer you question "... Why are we having to do this?... "

If you analyse the jig of John it actually takes care of several different issues

  Keeping the distance to the (repetitive) cuts

  Squaring

  "Levelling" (i.e. keeping the guide rail fully supported)

So any new "stand alone" accessory to the guide rail that can be launched with a potential for commercial success has to address all these three issues at once - otherwise were back at the "scrap piece" approach of John (which I happen to be quite nice once you've filled your scrap piece toolbox with the right items - that is, square pieces of e.g. birch plywood in reasonable sizes and thickness). I guess that the Festool engineers have a lot thinking invested here but since the brand opts for revolutions rather than incremental improvements I guess that we have to wait...

If it doesn't have to be stand alone I'd like the following MFT accessories:

  MFT with rulers "everywhere"

  A set of

    a) combined guide rail & carpenters' try square to be attached to the MFT (which I guess is the item which you, fshanno, is looking for?)

    b) an adjustable fence that rides in the slot of the MFT (square only to keep it "rigid")

Still the guide rail "Levelling" (which is the price for turning the table saw upside down) has to be addressed though...

So - in conclusion:

  No hard feelings here overseas

  I guess that Festools engineer do not lack ambition rather the problem is inherently hard

...

Btw - The "European Festool community" I'd say is pretty well represented here on the FOG

 

[fshanno]

You might notice I built a "squaring" fence on the near side of my bench. It looks a little weird with the black block but I built the rip fence to ride against the squaring fence. I cut the face of the squaring fence with a router that rode on the rail. So if you spend time to square the rail to the squaring fence the rip fence will be perfectly aligned to the rail.

Mike

I figured that was what it was far. 

Here's what I've come up with so far.  I guess stuff like this should go in the jigs and enhancements section but I think it's ugly enough to stay here

[attachimg=#1]

I use dominos which ride in the slot to keep it parallel. 

[attachimg=#2]

And here are the results.  I was shooting for 2" but I didn't spend much time paralleling the fence to the guide/blade.  Nor did I do a test cut to see if I was on.

[attachimg=#3]
[attachimg=#4]

I had some deflection so a clamp on the opposite end may be necessary.  For such a crude deal it worked pretty well.  And you're right about it being faster than a table saw.  Once you get started you can rock.